LBR Violation?

[Mike Hurd]

I would argue that a second is too long. The rulebook says that a decision must be made immediately after the pitcher has the ball.

As umpires we are told to wait 1-2 seconds. At least that's what I was taught in camps I've attended.

 

[marriard]

What if they started toward third immediately AFTER the pitcher caught the ball from the catcher?

If they are clearly stopped, and then moved towards 3rd, that would be their allowed change of direction.

The 'pause' or 'immediately' is a judgement call - you have to be there to call it. I am also not in the 'gotcha' umpiring business to 'find an out' so there is some leeway if they are clearly not trying to advance or draw a play, etc.

At most I might call 1 or 2 LBR's each year.
Generally it is a confused 10U player who a coach has mixed up or one of the 'I am so clever' coaches who are trying to get a free base despite having all the talent on their team and it being totally unecessary.

 

[CoachJD]

If they are clearly stopped, and then moved towards 3rd, that would be their allowed change of direction.

The 'pause' or 'immediately' is a judgement call - you have to be there to call it. I am also not in the 'gotcha' umpiring business to 'find an out' so there is some leeway if they are clearly not trying to advance or draw a play, etc.

At most I might call 1 or 2 LBR's each year.
Generally it is a confused 10U player who a coach has mixed up or one of the 'I am so clever' coaches who are trying to get a free base despite having all the talent on their team and it being totally unecessary.

Just guessing here, but are the ones you call mostly runners who are on the base taking off after the pitcher gets the ball in the circle/has her back turned (similar to that one video where the ump has the camera and the coach argues that her runner shouldn't be out even though it was obvious LBR)?

 

[marriard]

Just guessing here, but are the ones you call mostly runners who are on the base taking off after the pitcher gets the ball in the circle/has her back turned (similar to that one video where the ump has the camera and the coach argues that her runner shouldn't be out even though it was obvious LBR)?

Sometimes, yes.

But mostly it is 10U girls who has rounded a base, and now have 3 coaches and 8 parents yelling at them lots of different advice. Sometime they get confused and don't know what to do, so they stop and stand there unsure what to do next.

 

[CoachJD]

Sometimes, yes.

But mostly it is 10U girls who has rounded a base, and now have 3 coaches and 8 parents yelling at them lots of different advice. Sometime they get confused and don't know what to do, so they stop and stand there unsure what to do next.

To help with the parent yelling problem, I tell all our younger players that the softball field is the one place where they're allowed to ignore everything their parents say to them. Most of them like hearing that.

 

[Agcy]

As umpires we are told to wait 1-2 seconds. At least that's what I was taught in camps I've attended.

At the IGHSAU pre-season meeting, the past 2 years, they have emphasized and been very explicit that the runner must move immediately.

Per 8.7.2... "The runners(s) may stop once, but then must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base"

FWIW, My original question was in a High School Varsity game.

 

[LEsoftballdad]

This raises an interesting question for the umpires. We had this happen in a HS game in which my daughter was pitching.

We had a runner on 2nd with two outs and their best hitter coming up. My daughter intentionally walks her to face the #4 batter, whom she had struck out twice already. She throws a wild pitch on ball three allowing runner to go to third. When the batter gets ball four, she keeps going to second on a continuation. The runner on third starts to dance off the base with my daughter in the circle. She's confused if she should throw to second or third. The coaches are giving no help at all, and I'm trying not to yell out STAY IN THE CIRLCE because I don't want to be that parent. My daughter never makes a play, other than to look at 2nd and 3rd, when the runner for 3rd breaks for home and scores on a bad throw. She then Ks the next batter on 3 pitches, but we lose 4-3.

What does the pitcher have to do to get the runner to break for the next base or go back? Is it just holding the ball in the circle and making no move?

 

[chinamigarden]

This raises an interesting question for the umpires. We had this happen in a HS game in which my daughter was pitching.

We had a runner on 2nd with two outs and their best hitter coming up. My daughter intentionally walks her to face the #4 batter, whom she had struck out twice already. She throws a wild pitch on ball three allowing runner to go to third. When the batter gets ball four, she keeps going to second on a continuation. The runner on third starts to dance off the base with my daughter in the circle. She's confused if she should throw to second or third. The coaches are giving no help at all, and I'm trying not to yell out STAY IN THE CIRLCE because I don't want to be that parent. My daughter never makes a play, other than to look at 2nd and 3rd, when the runner for 3rd breaks for home and scores on a bad throw. She then Ks the next batter on 3 pitches, but we lose 4-3.

What does the pitcher have to do to get the runner to break for the next base or go back? Is it just holding the ball in the circle and making no move?

The answer is. It depends. The LBR rule doesn’t take effect until the batter/runner reaches first base. So alll the dancing about is legal until the batter reaches first base. Then all the
LBR rules apply.

Yes hold the ball and do not attempt or fake making a play on any of the runners. That keeps the rule in effect.

 

[Agcy]

This raises an interesting question for the umpires. We had this happen in a HS game in which my daughter was pitching.

We had a runner on 2nd with two outs and their best hitter coming up. My daughter intentionally walks her to face the #4 batter, whom she had struck out twice already. She throws a wild pitch on ball three allowing runner to go to third. When the batter gets ball four, she keeps going to second on a continuation. The runner on third starts to dance off the base with my daughter in the circle. She's confused if she should throw to second or third. The coaches are giving no help at all, and I'm trying not to yell out STAY IN THE CIRLCE because I don't want to be that parent. My daughter never makes a play, other than to look at 2nd and 3rd, when the runner for 3rd breaks for home and scores on a bad throw. She then Ks the next batter on 3 pitches, but we lose 4-3.

What does the pitcher have to do to get the runner to break for the next base or go back? Is it just holding the ball in the circle and making no move?

IMO:
If she had the ball in the circle...
Once the batter-runner touched first base...
If she made no play on the girl at 3rd (IE not raising the ball above her elbow or shoulder)...
If the girl at third Changed directions more than once (or stopped/paused at all)...

Then the girl at third should be out.

However, if your daughter had the ball up ready to throw somewhere, then all bets are off and what you said is legal.

 

[Westwind]

Here is the short version of the elements of the look back rule, (LBR).

The look back rule (delay) is in effect when the pitcher has the ball in the circle and the batter runner has reached first base.

When those elements exist, LBR is “on”. Base runners must be moving toward the next base or back to their last base.

The LBR can be shut off by some common things like an “attempt” by the pitcher (who has the ball in the circle) or by the pitcher walking outside the circle with the ball.

The pitcher can “shut off” LBR by making a fake which is an attempt.

My standard LBR post lol

I have a hard time remembering rules, it helps me to break it down into elements…