IR--one more time

[BoardMember]

You really do believe this stuff don't you Steve.........

Finch is capable of using more arm whip but not IR IN her technique. She pitches mostly from a palm out position from the top to release. So she rotates her forearm/hand only 90 degrees, none on some pitches like a riseball, to get to the neutral forearm position (palm forward).

Finch is a CLASSIC example if I/R........Finch has very long levers coupled with really good fast-twitch muscles. Highly developed stretch receptors and a very fast stretch shortening cycle (SSC)........Which allows her to reach a max I/R load slightly later in her sequence.....But she does get there......

This has been a bone of contention here because I teach more of a Finch "circle" and others stress the max IR.

Yes we know........Watch the thumb disapear from the front side (palm out) to the back side of the ball as the pinkie/ring fingers suddenly appear up the outside (palm up)......

Anyway.....IMO.......Isolating this sequence is the MOST important thing you can teach in fastpitch.......

This is what I teach.......And what I believe is optimal........Start to finish......and is WAY more then your 90 degrees of "rotation"...........Just watch the elbow joint turn from basically UP to forward.........

This is your 90 degrees of rotation........FACING OUT TO FACING FOWARD........This (according to you) IS what you teach......And is ALL you teach.......And is ALL anyone needs.........

The reason I keep responding to your mis-informed posts on I/R is that I believe you're selling people down the river with your advise here my friend.........Just my opinion.........

Of course video of one of your students NOT turning palm up would be pretty compelling with regard to what you teach vs. what really happens.............

Happy Easter.........

 

[BoardMember]

Regarding Rise.........While the goal is to effect release with the thumb out...........When timed with release correctly......I/R enhances spin AND velocity...........

Pauley has verifiably one of the best rises in the business.........

And she doesn't "do" what any of you claim she "should do" with her I/R when throwing rise.......

Almost, if not full, 180 degrees of rotation in the humerus, elbow joint, ulna, radius, wrist.......

Why are you telling people that I/R HAS to be, or even IS "limited" to be effective?......

The only thing I can think of is that people are "afraid of what they do not fully understand"..........

Turn on the lights guys......THERE IS NO BOOGY MAN..........

 

[Steve Huff]

Finch is a CLASSIC example if I/R........Finch has very long levers coupled with really good fast-twitch muscles. Highly developed stretch receptors and a very fast stretch shortening cycle (SSC)........Which allows her to reach a max I/R load slightly later in her sequence.....But she does get there......

You know boardmember, when people can't debate, they usually disparage other people. I don't believe anything. I question everything. That is a nice 12:00 and 09:00 palm out position by Finch! I said before in my post she uses IR. She doesn't in the riseball. That is a fact! My position on IR is not a position. It is a question. You are the one with dogma. But posting videos or trying to talk over the average reader to "impress" does nothing to resolve my questions. And physiologically I don't accept without evidence that turning your hand 180 degrees in IR is better than 90 degrees. As I said before, it is a question. However, you offer no proof, just declarations and a demeaning diatribe. I ask you without repetitious video "Hansen principle" evidence that this is in fact beneficial, health wise, and speed wise.

Strangely, I argue that Finch has a 90 degree execution of IR, and then you argue with me that Finch has a 90 degree execution of IR! Well, .......... at least in your video evidence and from what I have observed in other video. The other stuff quoted above is irrelevant to the general question if you read and accept that I said, and I also teach IR. Just not the same. Now the SSC is good if it is what I think you intended. Who created that term? I actually have a graphic in my teaching materials showing this issue, so coaches can visually get a clue of the pitcher's power in pushoff.

You and I disagree. You post the same things and use the same argument and throw in a dose of "over-the-head" analysis that most readers can't follow. Now I will give you an example of debate:

Generally one of the big mistakes young pitchers make in throwing a riseball is cupping the ball too much and not keeping a straight wrist, ball next to the thigh, and rotating the thumb and index finger under the ball. Instead, because of the bent, or slightly bent wrist, they curl the hand under the ball just as Pauly is doing, and also Escobedo does. They may manage a decent spin. I don't know if it is 12-6 or 11-5 or what. But it works for them. But how much more training do I have to impose on a young pitcher to accommodate the IR you demonstrate in Pauly's riseball. Because that is not a good riseball wrist action, but indeed may be forced by the 180 degree IR you promote. Please be specific and maybe you can turn the worm!

 

[BLB]

Thumb on top of the ball means??? Koert is throwing a rise ball in 1 image and a drop ball in the other.

 

[ArmWhip]

There seems to be two general variations on throwing the rise. In one the fingers are used more, the wrist is straighter and the palm faces toward 3rd. You have to have good sizes fingers to throw a rise this way, it's what you see more in the men's game. The other way uses a cupped wrist and the palm/fingers are slide under the ball, this is more commonly seen in the women's game. The first way usually produces better backspin, the second way often generates a 'tipped' bulletspin type of rise. At least this is how it appears to me.


IR as it is used here describes the action of the hand/upper forearm as it rotates from facing out to facing in. It seems to me that the dispute here revolves around where in this mechanical action the ball is released. There is no doubt that Finch and Pauley both go from open to closed, the question is 'where in this process is the ball released?'

 

[Mike]

"I am not a smart man" (forest gump), but I have never had a problem understanding boardmembers posts. In fact as I have said before I have learned more from his limited but well stated posts than any other posts/books/videos/pitching instructors all combined when it comes to how to throw a ball underhand. I do appreciate all who post on here, but I can honestly say BM has saved me significant amounts of money and headache as I can now spot bad pitching advice in under 2 seconds . You might say I use the internal rotation post as my hanson principle, I compare any and all pitching advice to the internal rotation post. And thanks to this thread I have some more pages to copy and refer back to.

 

[wannahit]

two of the more prominent pcs in my area seemded to be a bit behind the times, they were working with some of my players and i went to them to discuss ir and took a copy of the ir post on this site, and my lap top to look at some video, both have been instructing for over 25 years, one coach said it was too complicated, wasnt interested in the model pitching videos and said video prooved nothing, had been doing it for to many years to learn anything new. The other pc was interested and watched the videos that are posted on here and some of the others i own, for him the videos clearly proved to him he needed to add more ir into his teaching and he started reverse chaining it into his students, he was open minded and wanted to keep learning and improving his techniques, and realized the slo-mo video is a real teaching tool. A picture is worth a 1000 words, and video is a priceless tool to teach with and learn from.

 

[Mike]

Sounds like you found a decent pc in the latter of the two.

 

[wannahit]

yup, its the one pc i reccomend to my players, dozens of his pitchers went on to throw in college , some even d1, but he is still willing learn to become a better teacher, thats a good coach. I am always looking for better ways to teach my players!!!!!!

 

[Steve Huff]

My palm does not face 3B on a rise at release, I feel it is under the ball with my hand cocked out. I feel my elbow is bent some, as it always is. They do call the sidearm on the rise around here so your wrist cannot be straight. It may be facing 3rd earlier in the circle. I don't stop at these positions so I guess you can describe them differently (words fail and angles of videos often confuse what is important), I just get the one that produces spin, that is all that matters.

I am not sure we haven't created some confusion. When I say wrist straight, it is straight down the pant seam. When I say 3rd base side, it is palm out.