IR--one more time

[Steve Huff]

I agree David. It seems to me like Board Member and Steve are comparing apples to oranges in there arguments.
To me when Steve talks IR he only means from elbow down or Pronation, but when Board Member talks it seems like he is talking total IR or from the shoulder down (Medial + Pronation).

To me in the Jennie Finch clip she has no more than 90 degrees of pronation before the ball is released. Most of her rotation is medial. I agree with BM though that her palm is up at 9:00 and overall internal rotation is 180 degrees.

I'm teaching my DD more of a palm up at 9:00 because I think it is easier to teach and understand than trying to lets say keep it open to 3rd base or wipe the wall. I think there is some added velocity with the pronation from the palm up at 9:00. I don't think we would every get any scientific proof as to which is safer in my DD pitching life span.

Yes, and not quite! I do reference the shoulder, and that rotation and or hand bicep relationship is part of the windmill circle regardless of I/R. When doing the bowling style, pushing the ball, the hand and biceps are forward, aligned. When using I/R they are backward. The relationship is static. What I am talking about is the increased humerus (shoulder) ball displacement when the palm is facing up, when behind the pitcher. The palm up position is I/R only in the shoulder. The wrist can't rotate more. That does not include Finch in this video. Alan, how can her palm be up, when you can clearly see her thumb on top of the ball. Try it yourself! The second argument is this. If her palm were up, why can you see the entire width of her wrist? You can only see the entire wrist if facing you. It can't happen either way claimed!

Now look at the Harrigan photo on the previous page! My problem is not at all Finch. It is the increased stress on the elbow, particularly the ligament called the ulna collateral ligament of the elbow with Harrigan and the additional shoulder displacement caused by the hand being palm up behind the pitcher instead of palm out like Finch. Finch to me does not create abnormal physical problems. Harrigan and Escobedo do! And I think it is a rare girl like Ueno that doesn't! That is the physical side. The other side is if that additional torsion of the forearm to the palm up position aids speed, and presents problems with trying to create a controlled release spin.

 

[Steve Huff]

I would appreciate some help with my understanding the IR mechanism. I am having trouble understanding the extent to which pronation/rotation of the lower arm contributes to the velocity of the pitch. In looking at the Finch video above, as well as the Ueno and Pauly slo-mos, what I think I am seeing is the entire arm (upper and lower) internally rotating as a unit - that is, the relationship between the front of the bicep and the wrist/palm appears to be fairly constant until after release.

The rotation of the upper arm is easy for me to see. But forearm does not actually appear to rotate independently at the elbow...at least until the ball is gone. Do I have this right?

Yes David, I think you do! No ask yourself this. If you rotate the palm toward the sky behind Finch for example. What direction will the biceps face? Backward? Yes, only slightly more. And when the biceps and forearm rotate to the front, it will be from 09:00 or later, to the release point. The biceps rotates very little more than the Finch scenario you are watching. So how much does it help. In the end though, the hand rolls more, continuing sometimes to face inward toward the center of the body, or even all the way over to face down, which is a normal limit. Is that bad to roll the hand over? I don't think so. The elbow is really only set up for pronation. It is its function. But how does it affect release and spins?

 

[BoardMember]

Steve, this is why I can't debate with you........You refuse to recognize/acknowledge the difference between palm OUT and palm UP.......And the fact that you said the following AGAIN is proof that you cannot/will not acknowledge the difference.

Well this is disturbing to me. When you look at your video she is palm out, to palm forward.

As I said before......THIS is palm out.......This is 90 degrees of rotation......

This is palm up and 180 degrees of rotation........Jenny's Palm, Wrist, Forearm, Elbow, Humerus (Bicept) are turning WAY MORE then the 90 degrees shown above..........

Until you admit that Jenny's arm is rotating from palm out to palm up as it passes into/through 9:00 (the last quadrant)........There is NOTHING to debate.......

Your claim that there IS NO I/R from frames 1 through frame 6 in this clip is rediculous........

And IF there is I/R happening from frame 1 to frame 6.........How can she be ONLY palm OUT to palm FORWARD which ONLY Happens in frame 7 to frame 8............

Here's what It'll take for me to debate this issue with you........"Ah yes I see what your saying that there IS MORE THEN 90 DEGREES OF I/R in Finch's clip......Why is this better?"

IMO you don't want to debate this issue because you are wrong........And your ego is getting in the way of the learning process..........

 

[Alan Snedeker]

Now look at the Harrigan photo on the previous page! My problem is not at all Finch. It is the increased stress on the elbow, particularly the ligament called the ulna collateral ligament of the elbow with Harrigan and the additional shoulder displacement caused by the hand being palm up behind the pitcher instead of palm out like Finch. Finch to me does not create abnormal physical problems. Harrigan and Escobedo do! And I think it is a rare girl like Ueno that doesn't! That is the physical side. The other side is if that additional torsion of the forearm to the palm up position aids speed, and presents problems with trying to create a controlled release spin.

Just from watching all these videos, I think the stress on the elbow would have more to do with how far the ball is behind the alignment of the shoulders. Harrigan and Escobedo (ouch) is closing their shoulders earlier and the ball is behind causing more stress on the elbow and even shoulder. With Finch and Ueno the ball is more inline with the shoulders the whole way. This has nothing to do the the palm being up or out. I definitely don't have a degree in Biology just my observations.

 

[Steve Huff]

And IF there is I/R happening from frame 1 to frame 6.........How can she be ONLY palm OUT to palm FORWARD which ONLY Happens in frame 7 to frame 8............

Here's what It'll take for me to debate this issue with you........"Ah yes I see what your saying that there IS MORE THEN 90 DEGREES OF I/R in Finch's clip......Why is this better?"

IMO you don't want to debate this issue because you are wrong........And your ego is getting in the way of the learning process..........

First let me say you are putting words in my mouth. I don't claim there isn't I/R from frames 1-6. I have never seen frames 1-6. You made the slow mo video. I believe there is I/R in all frames. I just don't agree that she is palm up. If you can see her thumb, it isn't palm up. Her humerus is rotated backward, her biceps backward, as it rotates forward, I/R, the hand faces forward. How's that? Pauly had her hand up, facing up, palm up, and therefore her I/R in her shoulder maxed out, and in her elbow maxed out. How's that? And I don't think it is healthy! And I don't think it aids in releases. And I don't think it helps speed very much if at all. Perhaps 1mph or something, but miniscule.

So here you are again, back on videos. I thought you knew the science of all this? And no, not ever, will I agree that her palm is up! I will agree that Harrigan, and Pauly, and Escobedo in her photos is palm up. When you can see the ENTIRE width of the wrist, the palm can not be up! It is impossible because the wrist does not allow supination. You can easily see the width of he wrist at release. It narrows. you can see the tendons in her wrist at 09:00 to almost the back hip. Anyone can assume these positions and see the facts. Palm up, narrow wrist, palm out, wide full wrist view. Now, try to hold your wrist steady, and turn the hand palm up.

 

[BoardMember]

Just from watching all these videos, I think the stress on the elbow would have more to do with how far the ball is behind the alignment of the shoulders. Harrigan and Escobedo (ouch) is closing their shoulders earlier and the ball is behind causing more stress on the elbow and even shoulder. With Finch and Ueno the ball is more inline with the shoulders the whole way. This has nothing to do the the palm being up or out. I definitely don't have a degree in Biology just my observations.

Can you say Tommy Johns.

Yes Sir!............Transverse Hyper-ABduction in the Glenohumural joint.........A position that pulls the elbow behind the back when the humerus is approx. level to the ground (abducted)......Commonly known as "scap-loading" or "scap-trapping"........Is one of the most common causes of Labrum Tears and Cuff Injuries in "rotary arm actions"......

One of the BIGGEST benefits of "palm up/elbow down" is that it keeps the elbow/humerus aligned in the socket and prevents Transverse Hyper-Extension in the Glenohumral Joint.........

This is one of my biggest pet-peaves of the palm out at 9:00 position is that it often translates to hyper-abduction, where the elbow gets "caught" behind the back of the shoulder as it rotates down from the top of the circle........

IMO there is a reason the body seeks a more palm up orientation as the arm enters the last quadrant of the arm circle......That is EXACTLY what you've pointed out........Humeral alignment and reduced stress on the glenohumral joint, labrum and cuff........

I've never in 25 years had an "Elbow" or "Shoulder injury" using this method of FIRST isolating the action of 180 degrees of I/R to train students in the art of "throwing underhand"........IOW.....I teach what the body wants to do NATURALLY.........Not "Neutrally"..........NATURALLY..........

 

[Steve Huff]

Just from watching all these videos, I think the stress on the elbow would have more to do with how far the ball is behind the alignment of the shoulders. Harrigan and Escobedo (ouch) is closing their shoulders earlier and the ball is behind causing more stress on the elbow and even shoulder. With Finch and Ueno the ball is more inline with the shoulders the whole way. This has nothing to do the the palm being up or out. I definitely don't have a degree in Biology just my observations.

Can you say Tommy Johns.

Alan, with a major league pitcher, it can happen on one pitch, or over time. Are women built the same? Are their bones and ligaments as large? The stress in women pitchers shoulders, knees, wrists, etc. almost never happens quickly, but over time.

 

[BLB]

Mr Huff, just curious, what do you see in these images as far as palm up, out, down?

 

[BoardMember]

First let me say you are putting words in my mouth. I don't claim there isn't I/R from frames 1-6. I have never seen frames 1-6.

WHAT??????...........OH MY GAUD Steve!.....YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!........

It's the same clip you've been seeing for pages now!..........It's the same clip you said that there was only 90 degree of I/R..........

..

You made the slow mo video. I believe there is I/R in all frames.

Then this statement from you is FLAT OUT WRONG.......You can't have 90 degrees of I/R in frame 7 and 8.......And have I/R in frames 1-6......And ONLY HAVE 90 Degrees of I/R overall.....

So she rotates her forearm/hand only 90 degrees, none on some pitches like a riseball, to get to the neutral forearm position (palm forward).

Just admit you're wrong regarding 90 degree if I/R so we can move on.........

And this statement is yet another fallacy......

I just don't agree that she is palm up. If you can see her thumb, it isn't palm up.

Who LAYS THEIR THUMB NEXT TO THEIR INDEX FINGER Steve???? IF the thumb is postioned properly......Opposite the middle finger......Or between the middle and index finger the thumb WILL BE VERTICAL in the palm up position, and closer to HORIZONTAL in the palm out position......

Her humerus is rotated backward, her biceps backward, as it rotates forward, I/R, the hand faces forward. How's that?

What do you mean "how's that"..........180 degrees of INTERNAL rotation that's "how's that".........

Pauly had her hand up, facing up, palm up, and therefore her I/R in her shoulder maxed out, and in her elbow maxed out. How's that? And I don't think it is healthy! And I don't think it aids in releases.

HUH?? Pauleys arm moves down to exactly the same position as Finch's.........How's that?

And I don't think it helps speed very much if at all. Perhaps 1mph or something, but miniscule.

AT this point I don't really care what you think........I really only care that others get ACCURATE information so they can make their own determination.........And SO FAR.......What I know of those who've attempted to convert to I/R, palm forward, palm up, have ALL reported improved velocity, control and spin..........You have NO IDEA how many PM'd and emailed thank you's I've recieved over the last 3 years since I wrote the I/R posts and related drills.........These people are my proof........More then I can count........

So what proof did you say you have that refutes what I teach???

So here you are again, back on videos. I thought you knew the science of all this? And no, not ever, will I agree that her palm is up! I will agree that Harrigan, and Pauly, and Escobedo in her photos is palm up. When you can see the ENTIRE width of the wrist, the palm can not be up! It is impossible because the wrist does not allow supination. You can easily see the width of he wrist at release. It narrows. you can see the tendons in her wrist at 09:00 to almost the back hip. Anyone can assume these positions and see the facts. Palm up, narrow wrist, palm out, wide full wrist view. Now, try to hold your wrist steady, and turn the hand palm up.

I don't believe you.........PROVE IT.........Finch's thumb ROTATING from the front of the ball to the backside of the ball proves to me she is moving to more palm up then palm out as she enters the last quadrant........

And prove you are seeing the ENTIRE width of her wrist........I think it's simply a camera lens anomoly......Prove that it isn't........

 

[Steve Huff]

View attachment 1919 Mr Huff, just curious, what do you see in these images as far as palm up, out, down?

The first one is palm down, the second palm up.

The first photo demonstrates approaching the max pronation the elbow will allow into the palm down position. (The thumb and palm can actually turn over more with the thumb pointed to the ground)