IR of Rear Leg Exposed

[Wellphyt]

Pulled this quote from the "Bat Drag" thread. I didn't want to hijack that thread with lower body talk so I brought it here.

Would it surprise you if you were told that the hips actually resist being rotated and that it is the rear leg that is driving the hips? Why do you think Noontime jumped on Wellphyt recently over the suggestion that the hips were being rotated forward ahead of the [upper] rear leg being turned inward? My read was that Noontime took that to imply that Wellphyt was suggesting that the rear leg was not the driver of the hips … and he was challenging that notion. The lateral scrunching action, combines with the rear leg action, in driving the hips. It can be viewed as “wringing the rag”, “lateral scrunch”, etc..

No where since as far back as 2010 have I ever said that the rear leg doesn't drive the hips. It's my belief that the muscles that move the leg originate at the pelvis, and that the main power source for the weight shift comes from the muscles in the butt applying an ER/abduct action on the rear leg.

"Sam Snead was once quoted as telling President Eisenhower; “You can’t hit with authority until you get your butt into the ball.” The advice applies to the baseball hitter." -- Ted Williams TSOH

In laymen terms, the butt muscles move the leg...the leg pushes against the ground....the ground pushes back....the leg pushes against the pelvis.

My experience from working with kids is that if you tell them to use their rear leg to weight shift, they will almost certainly spin or at best give up the pressure at the back foot prematurely....before the completion of transition when the pelvis changes from turning back to turning forward. It is critical that the back foot torque to the right (RH batter) during transition. It should be a no-teach, but starting around 2001 many coaches/instructors/parents began teaching kids to stride to toe touch...pause...and drop the front heel while lifting the back heel....with an added emphasis on driving the knee down-and-in. I was guilty of teaching that approach for several years.

After BM posted the Sevam1 video back in 2010, I changed my approach to a pelvis/hip/butt driven weight shift using a firm rear leg as leverage; and the result was a much better weight shift. The reason my dd has such good pelvic action her demo clip is because she maintains pressure at her back foot during transition.

I'm smart enough to know that posters like jbooth and real people like my wife who is a physical therapist, know more about kinesiology and how muscles work than me. So I listen to them. There have been times where I was convinced that I was using my muscles in a certain way when I hit; only to learn that I was using them the opposite of what I thought.

If anyone out there doesn't agree with the science that says that the power source for the weight shift comes from the butt muscles applying an ER/abduct action on the rear leg; I would be interested in learning about the alternative way to create power to weight shift.

 

[tom.guerry]

See 3 min. mark for closed chain IR:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R4zRSE_-40

 

[softballphreak]

Pulled this quote from the "Bat Drag" thread. I didn't want to hijack that thread with lower body talk so I brought it here.



No where since as far back as 2010 have I ever said that the rear leg doesn't drive the hips. It's my belief that the muscles that move the leg originate at the pelvis, and that the main power source for the weight shift comes from the muscles in the butt applying an ER/abduct action on the rear leg.

"Sam Snead was once quoted as telling President Eisenhower; “You can’t hit with authority until you get your butt into the ball.” The advice applies to the baseball hitter." -- Ted Williams TSOH

In laymen terms, the butt muscles move the leg...the leg pushes against the ground....the ground pushes back....the leg pushes against the pelvis.

My experience from working with kids is that if you tell them to use their rear leg to weight shift, they will almost certainly spin or at best give up the pressure at the back foot prematurely....before the completion of transition when the pelvis changes from turning back to turning forward. It is critical that the back foot torque to the right (RH batter) during transition. It should be a no-teach, but starting around 2001 many coaches/instructors/parents began teaching kids to stride to toe touch...pause...and drop the front heel while lifting the back heel....with an added emphasis on driving the knee down-and-in. I was guilty of teaching that approach for several years.

After BM posted the Sevam1 video back in 2010, I changed my approach to a pelvis/hip/butt driven weight shift using a firm rear leg as leverage; and the result was a much better weight shift. The reason my dd has such good pelvic action her demo clip is because she maintains pressure at her back foot during transition.

I'm smart enough to know that posters like jbooth and real people like my wife who is a physical therapist, know more about kinesiology and how muscles work than me. So I listen to them. There have been times where I was convinced that I was using my muscles in a certain way when I hit; only to learn that I was using them the opposite of what I thought.

If anyone out there doesn't agree with the science that says that the power source for the weight shift comes from the butt muscles applying an ER/abduct action on the rear leg; I would be interested in learning about the alternative way to create power to weight shift.

Would you agree that the abs have a significant role in assisting those butt muscles; as they also assist with the actual swing?

 

[Wellphyt]

Would you agree that the abs have a significant role in assisting those butt muscles; as they also assist with the actual swing?

That's a question for Jbooth Purely from a teaching perspective, I don't say anything to kids about using their abs during the swing. I've worked with enough kids now using the throwing model I've adopted, to conclude that much of the swing is natural.

I focus on the hip/pelvic action because the hips set the swing in motion, and if the kids get that part right it will have a positive ripple effect downstream. This may sound counter-intuitive because I like to post on the "Technical Hitting Board", but I try to teach as few actions as possible. Prior to my dd having her surgery on October 4th; her thought process was down to Coil - Keep the Head Centered Between the Feet During the Move Out - Throw the Barrel. With a lot more work, she should be able to get that down to Throw the Barrel.

I'm working with two new '97 girls, and all we're doing early on is learning to throw overhand, throwing bats one handed and two handed into a net, and taking a few front toss swings to keep them encouraged.

Ted believed that it was important to strengthen all parts of the body; but he follows up that part of the book with an emphasis on hip action.

"You get your power not so much from the wrists or the arms and shoulders, but from the rotation of the hips into the ball. When you are effectively pulling the ball, you may notice that the top wrist does “break” a little, just at impact, but it is a very slight break and it is definitely not a roll. This is not to say you need not have strong wrists. You do need them. And strong arms, shoulders, back and legs. I was always squeezing rubber balls, working hand grips, doing fingertip push-ups, swinging heavy bats, doing chinups, running, walking, anything to get stronger."

"One point must be re-emphasized, however: the hips set the swing in motion and lead the way."

 

[jbooth]

See 3 min. mark for closed chain IR:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R4zRSE_-40

Why do you keep showing this. It's stuff that a podiatrist knows about how the bones in the foot move when you stand and/or walk. What in the heck does it have to do with a baseball/softball swing?

 

[jbooth]

Would you agree that the abs have a significant role in assisting those butt muscles; as they also assist with the actual swing?

This thread is about the back leg. But, to answer your question; NO, they have nothing to do with the butt muscles. The internal and external obliques (abs) have an effect on turning the ribcage (shoulders), but they have nothing to do with the back leg, or turning the hips (in a swing). The abs can turn the hips if you are hanging from a bar, but not very well, if at all, when you are standing on the ground. The obliques connect the pelvis to the ribcage.

 

[jbooth]

It is visible IR, but it his back femur is not internally rotating in the hip socket.

Stand on your front hitting leg and lift the rear foot off the ground, with the knee flexed. Now, pivot on the front leg, turning your belly button toward the pitcher. Your leg moves just as it does in the video of Williams. The front of your back thigh ends up facing the pitcher, and you applied no force whatsoever with muscles that cause femur IR, and then, when the belly button is facing the pitcher, the rear femur is in neutral.

There is visible IR from the pelvis pulling the back leg around, there is no IR force making it move to where it ends up. The only IR force is during the coil, and maybe for an instant after the abduction that starts the lower half. After that, it is abduction and ER, and then the leg IR's due to the pull forward.