Incorrect courtesy runner

[EdLovrich]

Unreported sub depends on the rule set:

NCAA 8.3.3

Lots of things can be in play here, but basically if the offending team reports it before the offended team does, you simply officially enter the player into the game and all play up to that point stands. If the non-offending team reports it, then -well see the rule because a lot depends on the timing of the team's reporting it, offense vs defense, had the player made a play, etc.

NFHS: 3-6-7

The player is entered into the game and the HC is warned. If there is a subsequent infraction, the player is restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game. The head coach is also restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game.

USSSA: 5.5

1sst offense: Player is entered into the game, all play stands, team warning.

2nd offense: Player is entered into the game, all play stands, HC is ejected

USA 4.6C

Basically the same as NCAA

 

[Agcy]

Unreported sub depends on the rule set:

NCAA 8.3.3

Lots of things can be in play here, but basically if the offending team reports it before the offended team does, you simply officially enter the player into the game and all play up to that point stands. If the non-offending team reports it, then -well see the rule because a lot depends on the timing of the team's reporting it, offense vs defense, had the player made a play, etc.

NFHS: 3-6-7

The player is entered into the game and the HC is warned. If there is a subsequent infraction, the player is restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game. The head coach is also restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game.

USSSA: 5.5

1sst offense: Player is entered into the game, all play stands, team warning.

2nd offense: Player is entered into the game, all play stands, HC is ejected

USA 4.6C

Basically the same as NCAA

I assume the USSSA is only when not batting roster... In all my years as assistant coach, we never reported defensive subs to the umpire.

 

[EdLovrich]

I assume the USSSA is only when not batting roster... In all my years as assistant coach, we never reported defensive subs to the umpire.

Correct, because when roster batting nobody enters or leaves the game.

 

[gdc03120]

I assume the USSSA is only when not batting roster... In all my years as assistant coach, we never reported defensive subs to the umpire.

Pitcher and catcher substitutions/switches need to be reported to the PU for CR purposes (or should be) - this way, if #14 was the CF and is now the P, and the coach now asks for a CR for her in the next half-inning, you're not questioning, "Why does the CF need a CR?" Granted, each plate umpire SHOULD be noting the pitcher/catcher each half-inning and be questioning changes NOT reported by the now-defensive coach.

 

[The Man In Blue]

Pitcher and catcher substitutions/switches need to be reported to the PU for CR purposes (or should be) - this way, if #14 was the CF and is now the P, and the coach now asks for a CR for her in the next half-inning, you're not questioning, "Why does the CF need a CR?" Granted, each plate umpire SHOULD be noting the pitcher/catcher each half-inning and be questioning changes NOT reported by the now-defensive coach.

Ehh ... not my job to question poor coaching (though I do it in my head ALOT).

It's my job to say "No, you cannot have a courtesy runner for your centerfielder, coach."

 

[gdc03120]

Right - I'm saying it rhetorically questioning it. If you hadn't realized (for some reason) that a pitching change had occurred, and you look on your lineup and the girl who is NOW pitching was the center fielder previously, it avoids confusion, etc. Making sure coaches report pitching/catching changes and confirming who is in the circle/behind the plate each half-inning is simple, proactive officiating that can be done during the 1-minute warmup period.

 

[EdLovrich]

Making sure coaches report pitching/catching changes and confirming who is in the circle/behind the plate each half-inning is simple, proactive officiating that can be done during the 1-minute warmup period.

WHAT!?!?! You mean this isn't MY time for grabbing a hot dog, hitting up the good-looking single parent down the 3rd base line, getting out my portable camp stool and taking a load off my feet, and generally looking and acting unprofessional?

 

[The Man In Blue]

Right - I'm saying it rhetorically questioning it. If you hadn't realized (for some reason) that a pitching change had occurred, and you look on your lineup and the girl who is NOW pitching was the center fielder previously, it avoids confusion, etc. Making sure coaches report pitching/catching changes and confirming who is in the circle/behind the plate each half-inning is simple, proactive officiating that can be done during the 1-minute warmup period.

You are correct that it is good preventative umpiring and should be done. For me, this is one of those things. Yes, I saw it was a different pitcher. My issue is this: why should I reward the coach for failing to do his job? By denying the CR and then correcting the illegal substitution, I made my point. By just correcting it and allowing it, I encourage more of it.

I believe in preventative officiating when it has a purpose. I’m not seeing the benefit to it here.

 

[EdLovrich]

You are correct that it is good preventative umpiring and should be done. For me, this is one of those things. Yes, I saw it was a different pitcher. My issue is this: why should I reward the coach for failing to do his job? By denying the CR and then correcting the illegal substitution, I made my point. By just correcting it and allowing it, I encourage more of it.

I believe in preventative officiating when it has a purpose. I’m not seeing the benefit to it here.

TMiB, you and I usually come to the some or similar conclusions, even if it takes a few posts (see the helmet thread). In this case, even though I agree with your reasoning of putting an end to sloppy coaching practices, you KNEW the player had pitched the previous half-inning. Once that player threw a live pitch, she was an un-reported sub, apply the proper penalty for that (in most sanctions a warning to the HC and ejection if it happens again) and allow the CR.

 

[The Man In Blue]

TMiB, you and I usually come to the some or similar conclusions, even if it takes a few posts (see the helmet thread). In this case, even though I agree with your reasoning of putting an end to sloppy coaching practices, you KNEW the player had pitched the previous half-inning. Once that player threw a live pitch, she was an un-reported sub, apply the proper penalty for that (in most sanctions a warning to the HC and ejection if it happens again) and allow the CR.

Oh, I agree. This is one of my hypocrisies. Do as I say (preventative officiating), not as I do (being a butthead).

OR ... happy compromise, give the coach the option:

"Coach, I can deny your request for a courtesy runner since #24 is listed as the centerfielder, or I can accept your request for a courtesy runner for your unreported substitute and restrict both you and the player to the bench* since this is the second time. Which would you like?"

*NFHS rules