Incorrect courtesy runner

[Lance Steckler]

let's have all the people against courtesy runners have a couple pitchers or catchers twist ankles or pull hamstrings running the bases, see how 'Against CR" they are then.

 

[The Man In Blue]

let's have all the people against courtesy runners have a couple pitchers or catchers twist ankles or pull hamstrings running the bases, see how 'Against CR" they are then.

Still against them. Any player can get hurt, tired, or hot. That's a lame excuse that is used by bad coaches.

I had a coach with nine players complain to me ON WEDNESDAY LEAGUE NIGHT that her team had played a lot of games that weekend at a tournament and her pitcher and catcher were tired, so I should just let anybody run for them. I asked why the rest of the team wasn't tired and why they had to pick up the slack. Then I advised she should recruit more pitchers and catchers and spend more time on conditioning during practice. (I wouldn't have gone that far with just any coach; but this one I knew and she was a particularly good whiner who was used to batting her eyes at most umpires.)

 

[Strike2]

1.) Unused substitutes

• A CR is NOT a substitution so they are not considered to have substituted when they CR.

I take your meaning, but where is that in the rule book? Where is the term "substitute" defined in a way that excludes courtesy runners? Or vice-versa...it's not in the Definitions section...

SUBSTITUTE. Any member of a team’s roster who is not listed as a starting player; a starting player who re-enters the game; or a FLEX who enters the lineup on offense.

 

[The Man In Blue]

I take your meaning, but where is that in the rule book? Where is the term "substitute" defined in a way that excludes courtesy runners? Or vice-versa...it's not in the Definitions section...

SUBSTITUTE. Any member of a team’s roster who is not listed as a starting player; a starting player who re-enters the game; or a FLEX who enters the lineup on offense.

I'm just looking at the USSSA book right now ... I guess they don't outright say it; you do have to piece it together in their book. I'm going to pare down a bunch of it, but see the bolded sections below.

Sec 3. COURTESY RUNNER
A. The team at bat may use a courtesy runner for the pitcher and/or catcher any time after they reach base other than by substitution. The same runner may not be used for both positions in the same inning. Neither the pitcher nor the catcher will be required to leave under such circumstances.

B. Players who have participated in the game in any other capacity are not entitled to serve as a courtesy runner (i.e., the courtesy runner must be an unused substitute).

C. A runner put in for any player other than the pitcher or catcher will be considered a substitute player.

D. A player may not run as a courtesy runner and be used as a substitute for another player in that half inning.

G. In the top of the first inning only, the pitcher and catcher are identified as those players listed as the pitcher and catcher; both must face at least the first batter on defense (one pitch). Thereafter, the pitcher and catcher are identified as the last players who physically played that position on defense. The pitcher or catcher must reach base legally by any means other than substitution in order to be eligible for a courtesy runner.
EXCEPTION: When an injury or disqualification occurs in the top of the first inning to the pitcher/catcher identified on the lineup card and she is unable to face the first batter in the bottom of the first inning, the player who ran for her is retroactively her substitute (unless the substitute was an LCAB courtesy runner), no longer a courtesy runner. All substitution rules apply, but the pitcher/catcher has left the game and may not return to the original pitching/catching position. PENALTY Unreported courtesy runner: An unreported courtesy runner is treated the same as an unreported substitute. The team is warned and further violations result in the ejection of the coach.

Also, the umpire section I quoted above lists substitutes and courtesy runners as distinct roles.

14.12(P) Keep a record of substitutions, courtesy runners, defensive team charged conferences, ejections/restrictions and team warnings for each team.

 

[The Man In Blue]

NFHS does say it explicitly ...

2-57-2
NOTE: A courtesy runner is not a substitute, but must be reported to the umpire.

 

[Strike2]

NFHS does say it explicitly ...

2-57-2
NOTE: A courtesy runner is not a substitute, but must be reported to the umpire.

That simple sentence clarifies all. Given the effort you had to go through with USSSA, I'll return to my original "overly complex and vague" description.

 

[The Man In Blue]

That simple sentence clarifies all. Given the effort you had to go through with USSSA, I'll return to my original "overly complex and vague" description.

And I will gladly concede that point!

 

[EdLovrich]

NFHS also makes it easier, since there is no LCAB. You have no sub available? Sorry, no CR.

 

[The Man In Blue]

NFHS also makes it easier, since there is no LCAB. You have no sub available? Sorry, no CR.

I know of one smart school coach who would recruit a kid from the track team and teach them how to run bases. That was it. CR (and maybe an occasional pinch run) was all the kid would ever do. Never batted, never played the field, never wanted to.

 

[flash277]

I'm just looking at the USSSA book right now ... I guess they don't outright say it; you do have to piece it together in their book. I'm going to pare down a bunch of it, but see the bolded sections below.

Sec 3. COURTESY RUNNER
A. The team at bat may use a courtesy runner for the pitcher and/or catcher any time after they reach base other than by substitution. The same runner may not be used for both positions in the same inning. Neither the pitcher nor the catcher will be required to leave under such circumstances.

B. Players who have participated in the game in any other capacity are not entitled to serve as a courtesy runner (i.e., the courtesy runner must be an unused substitute).

C. A runner put in for any player other than the pitcher or catcher will be considered a substitute player.

D. A player may not run as a courtesy runner and be used as a substitute for another player in that half inning.

G. In the top of the first inning only, the pitcher and catcher are identified as those players listed as the pitcher and catcher; both must face at least the first batter on defense (one pitch). Thereafter, the pitcher and catcher are identified as the last players who physically played that position on defense. The pitcher or catcher must reach base legally by any means other than substitution in order to be eligible for a courtesy runner.
EXCEPTION: When an injury or disqualification occurs in the top of the first inning to the pitcher/catcher identified on the lineup card and she is unable to face the first batter in the bottom of the first inning, the player who ran for her is retroactively her substitute (unless the substitute was an LCAB courtesy runner), no longer a courtesy runner. All substitution rules apply, but the pitcher/catcher has left the game and may not return to the original pitching/catching position. PENALTY Unreported courtesy runner: An unreported courtesy runner is treated the same as an unreported substitute. The team is warned and further violations result in the ejection of the coach.

Also, the umpire section I quoted above lists substitutes and courtesy runners as distinct roles.

14.12(P) Keep a record of substitutions, courtesy runners, defensive team charged conferences, ejections/restrictions and team warnings for each team.

Not so much a C R question but a sub question. As an umpire, what do you do if after a batter or two, you notice the 2B is a different player than last inning, and you check your lineup and she was on bench last inning, an unreported sub. Do you let it go since other team said nothing, have coach switch her out, or report her in with no penalty, or is there a penalty?