Where is some link to visit Steve's site as i am always willing to learn more.
Thanks Howard
How to fix elbows leading the hands at connection?
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Where is some link to visit Steve's site as i am always willing to learn more.
Thanks Howard
Guys,
Thanks for all the great input. My daughter is 13 so we found this just in time I think. She has tremendous bat speed and I couldn't see what was going on with the naked eye cause her bat was so quick and everything else looked good. The biggest thing I've noticed is she does get frustrated when her elbow flies. The best thing is she understands what it's suppossed to feel like and when they start to feel what their bodies are telling them it becomes easier to fix it. Understanding what went wrong and why it went wrong is the hardest part for kids to grasp IMO. I'm guessing this all started because our girls had alot of problems using their hips in their first years and this is how they compensated.
Thanks for all the great input. My daughter is 13 so we found this just in time I think. She has tremendous bat speed and I couldn't see what was going on with the naked eye cause her bat was so quick and everything else looked good. The biggest thing I've noticed is she does get frustrated when her elbow flies. The best thing is she understands what it's suppossed to feel like and when they start to feel what their bodies are telling them it becomes easier to fix it. Understanding what went wrong and why it went wrong is the hardest part for kids to grasp IMO. I'm guessing this all started because our girls had alot of problems using their hips in their first years and this is how they compensated.
With respect to the MLB pattern swing and the general type swing pattern that resembles overhand throw, "DRAG" means there is a long swing because the bathead does not swing out soon/early enough. This flaw frequently appears as back elbow getting well ahead of hands to power the swing early primarily by pulling longitudinally on the knob.
A necessary part of a fix for this is to start the bat turning early instead of starting the bat by shoulder/lead arm pull. In terms of a universal sequence requirement, this means the bat must be turning between the hands before the turning of the hips works up and starts the shoulders turning.
Mankin explains what this "early rearward acceleration" looks like and how the top hand/back forearm "roll"/supination is part of applying this early force/"THT/top hand torque/handle torque at launch":
YouTube - MrBatSpeed's Channel
When teaching overhand throw and swing together, it is important to understand that this rolling action of the back forearm at GO is when the swinging action DIVERGES from the throwing action and is no longer similar. Prior to this the back arm action/sequence is very similar and in some throws, there is a slight hint (skip rock) or much more (curve ball,esp. side arm sweeping curve) back forearm supinating action (very little in rock skip), BUT the swing must be very different to avoid letting the forward turn of the shoulders lay the back arm further back as it does in the arm loop forming part of the throw as Mark says. In swinging, the back wrist remains "set"/dorsiflexed and the twist of the forearms at GO (back forearm supination and lead arm pronation) assists in getting the bathed turning, NOT laying back the back arm further.
In throwing, after hand break the back elbow "stays up" as the throwing hand comes up and back by EXternal rotation, then the arm continues to lay back with elbow up by EXternal rotation as the shoulders turn open to form the arm loop.
What is confusing about this is that this is primarily a FEEL cue because when you look at actual video of overhand throwers/pitchers, the back elbow is usually just starting DOWN a little at this point due to other motions going on and range of motion limits in the shoulder socket. However, the muscular FEEL is one of keeping the back elbow UP, preventing active lowering of the back elbow.
Howard has a very good understanding of how the swing and throw are similar and he teaches swing and throw together, so he understands the meaning and usefulness and limits of the "rockskipping" cue.
MarkH says: But it's a poor cue ripe for misunderstanding.
Well, that's true of any cue.
Howard's description of how to understand the cue is excellent:
"We point out when teaching the elbow lowers and as we transition to connection the elbow is down and the hand is directly over the elbow and we term it as staying strong on the backside through connection and going into bat lag with the knob of the bat is leading the elbows as we turn and rotate as needed based on the location of the pitch. I never took it as the actual skipping of a rock since I knew how to skip a rock and pretty well I may add. However I could see where some people may misunderstand what was said verses implied."
And his response regarding the Slaught rock skipping and Englishbey criticism is right on target:
"The only thing I ever got from it was exactly what he said, it is the initial movement of the elbow coming down as IF you were to begin to skip a rock."
With regard to Englishbey's info, here is a synopsis of his initial info by siggy, Howard might want to review this until Mark gets him signed up at Englishbey.com:
Siggy's Baseball & Fastpitch Tips
In this case, the info mistakenly identifies Back arm EXternal rotation as a cause of drag:
Siggy: "BAT DRAG- back arm externally rotates at the elbow - like you're losing in arm wrestling - and the rear elbow ends up getting ahead of the hands during the early portion of the swing. Causes a long, slow swing - albeit one which often has a lot of power when solid contact does occur."
However, Back arm EXternal rotation in the right sequence is actually NECESSARY for elimination of drag. What needs to be avoided is the early active lowering/coming forward of the back elbow as this EXternal rotation is starting. It is not the EXternal rotation that weakens the arm/"backside" structure, it is actively bringing the back elbow down and forward (ADduction and flexion of the back arm lowering and bringing the back elbow down) instead of "keeping the back elbow up".
Do not instead try to "slam the back elbow down".
A "running start" of the bathead by Externally rotating the back arm while the back elbow stays up then prepares you to apply forearm action at GO that keeps the bat turning to prevent excessive pull/drag when the shoulders are turned.
Englishbey's updated info may have cleared some of this up.
A necessary part of a fix for this is to start the bat turning early instead of starting the bat by shoulder/lead arm pull. In terms of a universal sequence requirement, this means the bat must be turning between the hands before the turning of the hips works up and starts the shoulders turning.
Mankin explains what this "early rearward acceleration" looks like and how the top hand/back forearm "roll"/supination is part of applying this early force/"THT/top hand torque/handle torque at launch":
YouTube - MrBatSpeed's Channel
When teaching overhand throw and swing together, it is important to understand that this rolling action of the back forearm at GO is when the swinging action DIVERGES from the throwing action and is no longer similar. Prior to this the back arm action/sequence is very similar and in some throws, there is a slight hint (skip rock) or much more (curve ball,esp. side arm sweeping curve) back forearm supinating action (very little in rock skip), BUT the swing must be very different to avoid letting the forward turn of the shoulders lay the back arm further back as it does in the arm loop forming part of the throw as Mark says. In swinging, the back wrist remains "set"/dorsiflexed and the twist of the forearms at GO (back forearm supination and lead arm pronation) assists in getting the bathed turning, NOT laying back the back arm further.
In throwing, after hand break the back elbow "stays up" as the throwing hand comes up and back by EXternal rotation, then the arm continues to lay back with elbow up by EXternal rotation as the shoulders turn open to form the arm loop.
What is confusing about this is that this is primarily a FEEL cue because when you look at actual video of overhand throwers/pitchers, the back elbow is usually just starting DOWN a little at this point due to other motions going on and range of motion limits in the shoulder socket. However, the muscular FEEL is one of keeping the back elbow UP, preventing active lowering of the back elbow.
Howard has a very good understanding of how the swing and throw are similar and he teaches swing and throw together, so he understands the meaning and usefulness and limits of the "rockskipping" cue.
MarkH says: But it's a poor cue ripe for misunderstanding.
Well, that's true of any cue.
Howard's description of how to understand the cue is excellent:
"We point out when teaching the elbow lowers and as we transition to connection the elbow is down and the hand is directly over the elbow and we term it as staying strong on the backside through connection and going into bat lag with the knob of the bat is leading the elbows as we turn and rotate as needed based on the location of the pitch. I never took it as the actual skipping of a rock since I knew how to skip a rock and pretty well I may add. However I could see where some people may misunderstand what was said verses implied."
And his response regarding the Slaught rock skipping and Englishbey criticism is right on target:
"The only thing I ever got from it was exactly what he said, it is the initial movement of the elbow coming down as IF you were to begin to skip a rock."
With regard to Englishbey's info, here is a synopsis of his initial info by siggy, Howard might want to review this until Mark gets him signed up at Englishbey.com:
Siggy's Baseball & Fastpitch Tips
In this case, the info mistakenly identifies Back arm EXternal rotation as a cause of drag:
Siggy: "BAT DRAG- back arm externally rotates at the elbow - like you're losing in arm wrestling - and the rear elbow ends up getting ahead of the hands during the early portion of the swing. Causes a long, slow swing - albeit one which often has a lot of power when solid contact does occur."
However, Back arm EXternal rotation in the right sequence is actually NECESSARY for elimination of drag. What needs to be avoided is the early active lowering/coming forward of the back elbow as this EXternal rotation is starting. It is not the EXternal rotation that weakens the arm/"backside" structure, it is actively bringing the back elbow down and forward (ADduction and flexion of the back arm lowering and bringing the back elbow down) instead of "keeping the back elbow up".
Do not instead try to "slam the back elbow down".
A "running start" of the bathead by Externally rotating the back arm while the back elbow stays up then prepares you to apply forearm action at GO that keeps the bat turning to prevent excessive pull/drag when the shoulders are turned.
Englishbey's updated info may have cleared some of this up.
- Oct 12, 2009
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The problem with Mankin's approach is that he uses low quality clips and his analysis suffers as a result.
Here's a much better clip of Pedroia hitting one off the left field fence...
...that paints a very different picture.
P.S. Pedroia's swing is a bit unusual, and not really the best benchmark for anything.
Here's and oleary clip of CF view of Ryn throwing.
Notice back elbow "staying up" (and back) as throwing arm EXternally rotates around frame 40 with elbow lower in frame #42.
Notice back elbow "staying up" (and back) as throwing arm EXternally rotates around frame 40 with elbow lower in frame #42.
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Better question is why do you keep asking him questions. lol
CO: It has to do with teaching feel by teaching throw and swing together.
In both the back elbow needs to stay up while the back upper arm externally rotates to avoid disconnection and drag.
Girls who push when they throw will drag when they swing.
In both the back elbow needs to stay up while the back upper arm externally rotates to avoid disconnection and drag.
Girls who push when they throw will drag when they swing.
crankermo
Since I work with boys and girls I never try to point out they throw like girls, I say the girls get tagged with throwing like girls because they do not flex the lead foot knee, land on the ball of the foot and come down with the ball hand and up with the back elbow. Most girls come straight back with the ball hand and the elbow is down. I am not talking about situational throwing I see it happen on every throw in most cases. I tell them I do not want them to throw like a boy, I want them to throw like an athlete! When we do clinics we teach throwing first to introduce the weight shift as it is usually non existent in their skills. You will hear a parent say loud enough so everyone hears, my daughter knows how to throw and we came here to learn how to hit! I then give them my undivided attention to point out their daughter does not actually understand it very well at all. Then I have her swing a bat before we do anything else. Then after we are done I will ask the parents what looks different? They are usually a little more humble.
Thanks Howard
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Howard,
Thats' probably a better way to phrase it. One of my biggest pet peeves is poor throwing mechanics so I've alwyas stressed, to my daughter especially, to not throw like a "girl". I have to admit I like your terminology ALOT better. I'm going to start using that instead of my old standby. The one thing we have always pointed out to our girls is there is a direct correlation from one skill to another one in softball. I just can't believe I didn't catch this bat drag sooner.
Thats' probably a better way to phrase it. One of my biggest pet peeves is poor throwing mechanics so I've alwyas stressed, to my daughter especially, to not throw like a "girl". I have to admit I like your terminology ALOT better. I'm going to start using that instead of my old standby. The one thing we have always pointed out to our girls is there is a direct correlation from one skill to another one in softball. I just can't believe I didn't catch this bat drag sooner.
