HE question

[3bmama]

The Dodge Omni was a classic pile of junk.

You need to check yourself. My first car was a Plymouth Horizon and I contend that it is the greatest car ever made

 

[coach james]

I think the fact is that 99% of the girls on tv DO employee some IR. And what your actually seeing is a screw and rise ball release where the finish is up.....very different than a true HE release.

One very important point that is often overlooked in the HE discussion is that those that teach it also teach "push the ball down the circle" starting at 9:00 (the palm and ball is pointed to 2nd base) when it should be facing the sky and "pulled down the circle". The result is that little or no arm whip is generated into release because they are not using Internal Rotation of the upper arm, forearm and hand. The Hello Elbow finish is just a BY-PRODUCT of poor mechanics performed well upstream before the release.

Very true.....
HE mechanics will typically have the hand on top of the ball at 9:00 and pushing with the shoulder.
IR mechanics will have the ball upward at 9:00 pulling the arms down with the core and lat. muscles. The ball and joint socket of the shoulder will spin inside the socket for a split second, creating a nasty whip. This adds speed, spin and is 100 times safer on the shoulder. Just ask a girl with HE mechanics if her shoulder muscles are sore after pitching....
I pitch bp and live almost every day. (5 days a week on average) On average it's about 300 or 400 pitches a day I'm tired and sore all over because I'm not getting any younger, but my shoulder is fine. It doesn't even get stiff anymore. IR is why I'm not sore. However, when I front toss up close and behind the screen, with closed mechanics, my arm, shoulder and trap is sore for two days afterwards...

 

[javasource]

I think the last few posts are the most insightful. Sluggers brought up the glaring difference initially, which should be the focus between the two styles.

Hello Elbow is not what happens AFTER physical release of the ball... and neither is internal rotation.

Internal rotation is an articulation that takes place in the shoulder. Period. BOTH HE and IR utilize the articulation... however...

Those that advocate/recognize IR as a type of instruction... recognize that internal rotation of the humerus (which is NOT the same as forearm pronation) takes place DURING THE RELEASE PHASE of a pitch. Release phase is the 9ish-6ish o'clock part of the circle. THIS IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HE AND IR. HE advocates premature shoulder internal rotation... meaning it has happened BEFORE the release phase. IR advocates teach it DURING the release phase.

Pronation in the forearm is an elbow articulation... NOT a shoulder articulation... and NOT the same thing. Understanding forearm articulations is the basis (IMO) and foundation of all the types of pitches you throw.

Pronation is also faster than blinking, Sluggers... especially when the muscle is stretched.

Mentioning Werner as an advocate of anything other than internal rotation is a bunch of phooey... as her studies blatantly point out the term 'internal rotation' a multitude of times... and show the reduced compressive forces of olympic pitchers versus youth. How is that? This is where you can deduce... that many younger pitchers are not maximizing IR of the shoulder during release... hence the greater compressive forces... because the energy is not dissipated from the glenohumeral joint.

When HE advocates turn to the "it's safer" stance... very little realize what they are actually doing... which is commenting on something they know nothing about. The motions that comprise 'what is safe' are much more involved than the simple statements. It's a losing argument with ZERO scientific evidence... and medicine is science. Anyone that has ever done any level of kinesiology as it relates to throwing will get offended by these statements... as they are simply not true.

Most injuries in this sport are predisposed and/or because of overuse. Like... if I type too long of a response... I risk carpal tunnel... so, I'm done.

Ok... one more addition... that I'm sure will offend a few:

If you are instructing athletic movements... with the purpose of creating the highest level of performance in athletes... you should be familiar with and understand joint articulations. IMO... if you do not have this understanding, you should not coach and are not the expert you may be perceived as or purport to be. Having high-level talent walk through your door is not the same as creating it. There is no excuse these days for coaches to not know this stuff... it's readily available to all that desire to be better... and readily dismissed or not pursued by those that think too much of themselves. Just my opinion... but I guess I grow tired of those that accept accolades for athletes that discovered success on their own.

 

[Rocketech1]

Pronation is also faster than blinking, Sluggers... especially when the muscle is stretched.

Exactly! This point was made crystal clear to me when reading Boardmembers "Internal Rotation" thread. He said do this drill "hold your arm straight out in front of you with the palm down. Rotate it 180% so the palm is facing the sky. Now rotate it back again to palm down. Do this as fast a you can several times and the hand will blur".

If you want to see the power of pronation and internal rotation, do that drill. This is how good pitchers generate a tremendous amount of velocity and spin on the ball. Do you think hello elbow advocates utilize this technique?