HE question

[Mike-Coach Q]

I've been on both sides of it, I learned HE from Ernie Parker and Doug Finch when I was starting out. I read boardmembers post, not fully understanding it, I shelved it for 2 years before I introduced it to my 45 plus students. I had zero complaints and everyone of them improved in either speed or accuracy or both. However, I did have one student that never fully converted to IR. HE snap, peel drop pitcher that I clocked in the 10th grade at 63 mph several times. I thinks she could have exceeded 65 with IR. My assistant coach who is a men's fast pitch pitcher looks so natural and smooth when he whips and snaps the ball, I couldn't imagine him trying to do a hello elbow follow through. I'm still learning and improving as a coach, but for me IR was the best thing for me and my students.

 

[Rocketech1]

Back in the day I used to teach HE to the young ones along with a horseshoe grip and handshake release. Not so much to win games but to provide a quick path to success and keep them interested. Even today I do not know that approach is terrible so long a you work toward IR in the future. I have a hard time believing what a kid does, either good or bad up to HS age has much of an impact on future success. Once they hit 13-14 the wheat is separated from the chaff and you find out who is in it long term.

riseball - you know I generally respect your opinions because they are well thought out and you try to educate yourself and others with good and reliable information but I have to strongly disagree with the above post. IMO, it's very important to teach proper mechanics from Day 1 since the kids will be doing this repetition (i.e. windmill pitching mechanics) 1,000 and 1,000 of times each year either ingraining good mechanics or bad mechanics depending on what is taught. Most of the pitchers around our area start at 7YO & 8YO since the rec leagues have 8U kid pitch. The kids who are doing HE will never "graduate" out of rec as a pitcher because their poor mechanics will be holding them back. By 12U, I have not seen one travel ball pitcher using HE mechanics because they won't be effective and will not be getting circle time on a travel ball team. It's a vicious cycle, they don't get valuable playing time pitching and won't improve, the lack of improvement will get them less time in the circle, and so on...

My recommendation to all potential pitchers is to perform the drills in BM's "I/R in the classroom" so they start off with a great arm whip foundation from the get go. It will be well worth the effort, trust me as we have gone down the HE dark side before when DD was learning how to pitch and it really inhibits the newbie pitcher from maximizing their potential. No one knows how long these kids will play the game so you might as well give them the tools to be successful now and into the future.

 

[JJsqueeze]

I kind of liked the pragmatism of RBs take on teaching HE sometimes. There are plenty of girls out there that are never going to do what it takes to really pitch long term, but might want to pitch in REC. Spending months getting them ready doesn't make sense all the time if she just wants to throw strikes in a couple of weeks. As long as you let her parents know that what you are doing is just a shortcut to getting going and would need to be corrected later seems fine to me. We all know how deadly that high arcing 30 mph 10U rec ball strike can be. I can see myself talking to a girls parents and giving them the options and letting them decide how to instruct a young pitcher. Then if they get the bug you can quickly convert them.

 

[Rocketech1]

I kind of liked the pragmatism of RBs take on teaching HE sometimes. There are plenty of girls out there that are never going to do what it takes to really pitch long term, but might want to pitch in REC. Spending months getting them ready doesn't make sense all the time if she just wants to throw strikes in a couple of weeks.

You are assuming that teaching correct mechanics is much more time consuming than teaching HE mechanics. I don't believe that. I think BM said that his drills can be done in a few weeks and then you practice these good mechanics every time you practice pitching. Should we not teach proper hitting or throwing or fielding at the younger ages because the player may or may not play past rec league? That was never my philosophy when I coached. Waiting until a kid is in high school to teach proper mechanics and fundamentals is so foreign to my approach to the game.

 

[Sweet Lou]

We all know how deadly that high arcing 30 mph 10U rec ball strike can be.

Change-up, Change-up, really slow change-up. :lol:

I can't tell you how many times I've seen that throw off the "good" hitters in rec.

 

[JJsqueeze]

You are assuming that teaching correct mechanics is much more time consuming than teaching HE mechanics. I don't believe that. I think BM said that his drills can be done in a few weeks and then you practice these good mechanics every time you practice pitching. Should we not teach proper hitting or throwing or fielding at the younger ages because the player may or may not play past rec league? That was never my philosophy when I coached. Waiting until a kid is in high school to teach proper mechanics and fundamentals is so foreign to my approach to the game.

My experience is that with a bowling motion a strike can be thrown reasonably consistently in a week or two, sometimes day 1. For a good IR motion the speed gets there quickly but accuracy lags by months for a new pitcher.

As for how to teach these things, I am a stickler for good mechanics, but not all families have the ability to put in the practice time needed to get some of this stuff right and it sure as hell doesn't happen in a 2 hour weekly rec practice so if flexing the rigidity of "my way or nothing" opens up a chance for a girl to pitch, then I am all for it. As long as the parents understand that it is a shortcut.

 

[JJsqueeze]

Change-up, Change-up, really slow change-up. :lol:

I can't tell you how many times I've seen that throw off the "good" hitters in rec.

I know- hard to square up a ball that is dropping vertically to the plate.

 

[coach james]

Does Hillhouse use HE (Except his hand goes up to the opposite shoulder of his throwing arm) or is HE different? Also, curious why HE is looked down upon? Sorry, just a curious day!

Fact is that there is more than one way to have success pitching. Just watch any college softball game and you will see multiple different styles.

I think the fact is that 99% of the girls on tv DO employee some IR. And what your actually seeing is a screw and rise ball release where the finish is up.....very different than a true HE release.
And as a matter of fact, I challenge anyone to find a true, back spinning riseball with closed off HE mechanics.....

 

[Rocketech1]

I think the fact is that 99% of the girls on tv DO employee some IR. And what your actually seeing is a screw and rise ball release where the finish is up.....very different than a true HE release.

One very important point that is often overlooked in the HE discussion is that those that teach it also teach "push the ball down the circle" starting at 9:00 (the palm and ball is pointed to 2nd base) when it should be facing the sky and "pulled down the circle". The result is that little or no arm whip is generated into release because they are not using Internal Rotation of the upper arm, forearm and hand. The Hello Elbow finish is just a BY-PRODUCT of poor mechanics performed well upstream before the release.

 

[cuzmail]

If you ever want to get slapped silly by a girl, play the "hand slap" game against a high level pitcher.

OK, this hits home. Not saying DD is a high level pitcher, just that she is working to get there.

DD and I used to play the hand slap game all the time. I could move my hand away from her hand with ease. In the winter of '13 we began the transition from HE to IR. Since then, I can't get my hand away from hers before the mallet hits to save my life. Some of that may be attributed to her simply being a little older and maturing more as an athlete, but I think Sluggers just explained the main root difference.