For All You I/R Pitching Junkies........

[halskinner]

I had a long reply to all of this for you BM but apparently my session expired before I hit send. I'm rather pissed off about that. Suffice to say, I agree with some of your post. Disagree with other bits.

Bottom line, I don't have a problem if someone really throws a drop curve. But most do not. I'm going to disagree based on some first hand info that Osterman throws peels. But that can be debated later. I'll also disagree that I can't make the ball cut outward in a peel motion. Just as I can make it shoot in with finger pressure, I can make it go out. But I don't do this or teach it as I don't want the ball moving over the middle of the plate. That's dangerous. Which is also why Im not partial to the "drop curve" since most don't work anyway. Many hang over the middle of the plate.

Bill

Hi Bill. Been there done that more than once on losing what you worked on for 15 or 20 minutes. Started copying it to Word just in case I am timed out. I would advise everbody do the same on a long reply or post, JUST in case.

 

[Hillhouse]

BM

I know Cat's pitching coach (bobby smith), not the the other ones who've taken credit for her. He throws a peel drop. When I have seen her on TV, she throws a peel. Watch this clip here and at the 53 second mark, she tells you she pulls up on the seems (which indicates a peel drop). Her wrist rotates after she throws the ball (so does mine) which can make people think it's a turn over. it's not.

YouTube - Cat Osterman on Pitching: Softball Training Tips

Yes, you can say a lot of people claim to have pitches they don't. But we aren't talking about those, we are talking about THIS. I simply do not understand the need to change a pitcher's motion, snap, and step to throw a drop ball. It is baffling to me. And it doesn't make sense why people are taught multipe ways to pitch (releases, etc.) for various pitches. Teaching someone to throw a drop curve, as it's commonly taught that I see, is confusing. I'm a pretty decent pitcher but even I cannot do what many of these people are teaching girls to do.

I've said before and I'll say it again.. I don't really understand all this "I/R" stuff and the complexities. I'm a pretty simple guy. I personally believe a pitcher will, for the most part, use their bodies the way it's designed to work if they are throwing naturally. It's all the funky stuff they get "taught" which messes 90% of them up. But that's just my opinion.

Bill

 

[Hillhouse]

BTW, I'm a little amazed at these videos on Youtube. Candrea, etc. all use USA Softball Logo apparel on their clothes. I guess that adds crediblity. But, I was told by ASA that I wasn't allowed to do that in my videos. I guess there are different rules for different people.

Bill

 

[Dusty]

Last weekend I tried to get my dd started in throwing an inside cut drop and I was wondering whether she should stick to her conventional drop grip (3 fingers on seam) and snap it off the index finger or shift the middle finger over next to the index finger?

We tried both ways with little success although she threw one of her best drops w/o cutting of the day when she snapped it off the index finger keeping her grip the same. It seemed to not only be faster but break harder down, I would have considered it an instant breakthrough if it also cut inside.

Thanks,

Dusty

 

[cyfairslam]

BTW, I'm a little amazed at these videos on Youtube. Candrea, etc. all use USA Softball Logo apparel on their clothes. I guess that adds crediblity. But, I was told by ASA that I wasn't allowed to do that in my videos. I guess there are different rules for different people.

Bill

I don't know which particular video you are referring to and I have not seen all of them. But if the Youtube videos came from his instructional DVDs, he is shown with USA Softball logo apparel because ASA/USA Softball is a partner in the video.

Cat's video was made in partnership with ASA/USA Softball as well, but she is shown with Under Armor apparel because of a separate contract.

 

[Mark H]

Good to see female softball players getting sponsorship attention from national brands outside of those strictly related to the sport like bats and gloves.

 

[Hillhouse]

I don't know which particular video you are referring to and I have not seen all of them. But if the Youtube videos came from his instructional DVDs, he is shown with USA Softball logo apparel because ASA/USA Softball is a partner in the video.

Cat's video was made in partnership with ASA/USA Softball as well, but she is shown with Under Armor apparel because of a separate contract.

Fair enough Cyfairslam. Yet, whenever I see clinics advertised with any of the "Olympic players" or coaches, they all seem to use their USA/ASA media picture for the photos, wearing Team USA gear. I was NOT allowed to use my USA team picture in any of my stuff. The photos on and in my website with USA gear are private photos, not the official ones. Maybe it's not a big deal and they don't really enforce the policy of not allowing it... but I was specifically told I wasn't allowed when I asked. Maybe that's the problem... I asked first.

Bill

 

[cyfairslam]

Fair enough Cyfairslam. Yet, whenever I see clinics advertised with any of the "Olympic players" or coaches, they all seem to use their USA/ASA media picture for the photos, wearing Team USA gear. I was NOT allowed to use my USA team picture in any of my stuff. The photos on and in my website with USA gear are private photos, not the official ones. Maybe it's not a big deal and they don't really enforce the policy of not allowing it... but I was specifically told I wasn't allowed when I asked. Maybe that's the problem... I asked first.

Bill

I suspect you are correct, you asked permission.

 

[BoardMember]

BM

I know Cat's pitching coach (bobby smith), not the the other ones who've taken credit for her. He throws a peel drop. When I have seen her on TV, she throws a peel. Watch this clip here and at the 53 second mark, she tells you she pulls up on the seems (which indicates a peel drop). Her wrist rotates after she throws the ball (so does mine) which can make people think it's a turn over. it's not.

YouTube - Cat Osterman on Pitching: Softball Training Tips

As you said, she does show a 4 seam grip and talk about pulling up on the seam. That's why I said if you told me she threw a peel I'd believe you.

Yes, you can say a lot of people claim to have pitches they don't. But we aren't talking about those, we are talking about THIS. I simply do not understand the need to change a pitcher's motion, snap, and step to throw a drop ball. It is baffling to me. And it doesn't make sense why people are taught multipe ways to pitch (releases, etc.) for various pitches. Teaching someone to throw a drop curve, as it's commonly taught that I see, is confusing. I'm a pretty decent pitcher but even I cannot do what many of these people are teaching girls to do.

I put together this comparison clip of Cat throwing 2 different pitches in the same game. Have a look and tell me what you see.

In the left side clip, I seen pure drop. Straight over the seams, straight down. In the right side clip however, I see a pitch that not only drops but curves into the RH'r on a tilted axis across her body. Her hip and leg action is different also, one staying open from the target in the right side clip (drop-curve), and one closing back to the plate in the left side clip as her front foot is forced open straight toward the catcher. In the pure drop clip her throwing arm shoulder also gets infront of her hip as she moves more "over the top" of the pitch.

I took the liberty of blowing up the clip and marking the spin axis in both pitches:

It's very rare that Cat throws a flat curve ball. It seems to me that she almost always throws a "dropping curve", or "drop-curve".......I have tons of clips of her throwing that "down curve ball".........

Your thoughts?

I've said before and I'll say it again.. I don't really understand all this "I/R" stuff and the complexities. I'm a pretty simple guy. I personally believe a pitcher will, for the most part, use their bodies the way it's designed to work if they are throwing naturally. It's all the funky stuff they get "taught" which messes 90% of them up. But that's just my opinion.

Bill

You don't need to understand internal rotation Bill. Because you, like me, have never been taught AWAY from the natural motion.

I've had hundreds of pitchers come to me to "get fixed" over the past 25 years. So I took it upon myself to understand what the hell was being taught to all these kids that was causing them such struggles to simply "throw" a softball underhand.

Upon studying the bio-mechanics of what I was unteaching them to do, then re-teaching them to do, I gained an understanding of what it was that was making my pitchers so successful when compared to those who came to me learn that motion I teach and unlearn what they'd been taught.

FYI, I don't talk to my kids about internal rotation. I don't have to. I show them how to throw the ball, just like you do. But when trying to tell people who are worlds away what it is they should be doing vs. what they are doing, the internal rotation mechanical principle was the best explaination I could offer them WITHOUT hands on lessons.

As you can see by the response to the mechanical explainations I provided here in the I/R threads, many people who previously had NO CLUE what it should feel/look like now have a good understanding of the basic principles of throwing a ball underhand........And what they should/should not be looking for in a pitching coach regarding mechanics.........

My best as aways.........

 

[lhowser]

I've had hundreds of pitchers come to me to "get fixed" over the past 25 years. So I took it upon myself to understand what the hell was being taught to all these kids that was causing them such struggles to simply "throw" a softball underhand.[

As you can see by the response to the mechanical explainations I provided here in the I/R threads, many people who previously had NO CLUE what it should feel/look like now have a good understanding of the basic principles of throwing a ball underhand........And what they should/should not be looking for in a pitching coach regarding mechanics.........

This is true. Most teachers I have observed and have watched that teach here in my state of Ohio emphasize a perfectly timed wrist snap at the hip and then a stright up finish to the target making a muscle with the elbow pointing at the catcher. Other enlightened coaches and former players who realize that is not working suggest a perfectly timed wrist snap at the hip and then "let your arm go loose wherever you want". Many teach wrist snaps with the previously discussed finish and with shoulders square to the target as a warm up. There are lots of written materials on websites that support this mechanic. I allowed my youngest this summer(she's 9) one time to talk to and work out with the dad of one of the best H.S. pitchers our state has ever seen hoping to glean some insights. He immediately instructed her to start doing "20's" (20 wristflips, 20 straight on snaps...etc). When i tried to explain to him I/R he politely looked at me like I was nuts. I told him I had slow motion video of his daughter pitching and she doesn't do what he thinks she does...she actually pitches by throwing underhand with I/R. I have seen many former players teach this same wrist snap mechanic even though they do not do it themselves...somehow they think they do. I sit through tourneys of 10U and 12U hopefulls throwing high pitch after pitch. I watch them push the ball and snap their wrist like a modified slow pitch release and I hear their coach and parents shouting out "adjust your release point kid". The I/R thread and explanation has been extremely helpful to me to unteach a few pitchers and start a couple of young ones off in a good way. I see it working with my 9 year old dd as she pops the glove with some nice velocity and good control. We'll ahead of most of her peers and I attribute it to learning to throw underhand when she was 8 with the help of BM's explanation and supporting videos.