Escalation of Commitment

[CoogansBluff]

Your rationale has some validity, but by the same token, there's nothing wrong with encouraging children to give their best efforts in everything they do.

I do think there's something wrong with encouraging children to give their best efforts in everything they do. It's not realistic, nor healthy.

My DD just ran a 5K. She signed up 2 months ago. Giving it her best would've entailed running almost every day. Instead, she ran a couple of times a week and finished the race (without walking) in a mediocre 30 minutes. She ran with a friend, had a great time, bought the t-shirt, posted photos on facebook and now likes to run a mile or two for fun. I think it was one of the best things she's done in a while. And she didn't give it her best.

That's all I'm saying. I didn't say to heap praise on mediocrity. Just said that casual participation is underrated.

 

[grcsftbll]

I didn't see anyone suggest we should praise mediocrity and laziness.

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

That's all I'm saying. I didn't say to heap praise on mediocrity. Just said that casual participation is underrated.

I believe there's a dividing line between participation and competition, and that's kind of where I got lost. DD likes to both participate and compete, and the interest level changes between the two quite a lot at times. I lost sight of the participation aspect.

I will tell you that DD had a huge smile after our talk. I'm keeping her in the winter league because 1) she'll be coached by not-me, and 2) it was paid for. I told her that she had the option to attend other clinics and training if she wanted, that I would show her what was available. My plan is to stop coaching her outside of team practices and games (and I don't try to coach during games, I just manage). So if she wants to work on something, I'll find the clinic or private coach.

 

[BobInMadison]

A 14 year-old-girl can be, well, interesting.

My all-time favorite 14-year-old girl softball moment.

A few years back, in a fall league, DD #1 was 14 and playing on a 14U rec league team that kept getting beaten up by C level TB teams. They played double headers every Sunday. They were finally facing a team they might be able to beat, when their star pitcher broke her hand in a 16U TB scrimmage on Saturday (DD 1 was the only other girl on both teams). A few other girls were missing, and not all of them informed the coach. About 40 minutes before game time, only 8 girls on the team, so the coach told me to get DD 3 and let her play LF.

That game, I ran the scoreboard. For various reasons, the score keeper sat right by the visiting team dugout (we were home). On the other side of me, right behind home plate, was the softball dad keeping the books for his team. I mentioned I had 2 DDs in the game, ages 14 and 10. He mentioned he also had two DDs in the game, ages 14 and 11.

Whenever his girls came up to bat, he would give some softball advice to his DDs, His 11-year-old would nod her head. His 14-year-old would roll her eyes.

Finally, his 14 y.o. had had enough. "DAD!!!!! I'm 14 YEARS OLD!! I think I know softball by now!"

 

[Indiana]

That's a good one, Bob. Looking back over the last 7 years or so, I've concluded that our girls listen to our every word up until age 11 or 12, then stop listening from 12-15, then start listening again around age 16-17, though now with a filter. They're savvy enough to know that we might have some knowledge to share (such as my DH with hitting instruction) and some knowledge that is better off ignored (like my fashion advice).

BTW - casual participation is how my daughter learned that she wants a career in publications. She always loved to write, and usually has several stories going at once. She never showed any interest in "journalism camps" (yes, that's a thing - I had no idea) or writing workshops of any kind. She finally got involved with the school paper during her Junior year. It turns out that she loves it, applied early admission to a very competitive journalism program for college, got accepted with a scholarship and is currently on cloud 9.

 

[WARRIORMIKE]

We've all been there: fishing; owning a boat...

This offends me........... LMAO

 

[Lickety Split]

"Escalation of commitment refers to a pattern of behavior in which an individual or group will continue to rationalize their decisions, actions, and investments when faced with increasingly negative outcomes rather than alter their course."

We've all been there: over bidding on an eBay item; continuing to repair the car that should be sold or scrapped; fishing; owning a boat...

I didn't know this was a "thing" until recently, and I find that it describes much of human behavior that I've found puzzling for a long time. This especially includes my own behavior. That said, having it defined for me has helped to make me more aware of when I'm falling into the trap. I am learning to cut bait sooner.

Escalation of commitment also describes me and DD playing softball. I have put a lot of time, effort, and money into DD's playing - just like most of us here. I have done so even when she has resisted putting in the extra effort, because she gets so excited over the moments when that effort pays off.

The thing is, DD's resistance hasn't lessened, hasn't changed in the 2 years or so since she initially expressed a desire to "get better" and make one of our select teams. Last night was a perfect example: she's got indoor live pitching league starting on Saturday, she's been picked up as catcher for a local TB team for this league, and when we went to the basement to practice she showed zero interest, was moping around and shuffling her feet. We had the same conversation we've had too many times over the past 2 years: she doesn't want to "get" better, she wants to simply "be" better; she's unwilling to take a risk (practice something new or difficult) for fear of making a mistake; she won't listen to any input and wants to do everything her way vs what she's been coached to do. This last is a defense mechanism - she knows the correct way, refuses to do it correctly, and so has a built in excuse for failure.

I feel like I've failed her, that somehow I've created this character flaw in her where she will never take a risk because she might look bad. I don't know how to put her in a position to take a risk and fail and learn to be OK with that.

I also recognize that, at 13 she needs to be responsible for some of her choices. So last night, instead of practice, I talked to her about how having the same conversation every time there's practice (whether it be softball, her music - she's really talented, school, Girl Scouts) has gotten to be too tiring for me. Be sure that I told her that I loved her with all my heart and always would, no matter what. But I also told her that there'd be no NECC camp, no hitting lessons, no clinics, that I will not be investing in her softball any more outside of registration fees for rec IF she wants to play at all. I told her I won't be dragging her down stairs for practices, and that I will be spending the extra time on other things like the stack of books in my office that need reading. I told she should probably not try out for the MS team (that I coach) because it's more hard work than she's ever done, and I won't have an attitude problem on my team - especially one from my own DD. I was gentle, but honest. I put it on her - if she wants to get better, she must be the one to initiate.

And it hurts me worse than it hurts her to walk away from all of it. I think that means that I was pushing her for the wrong reasons, that I'd escalated my commitment beyond a healthy level.

Maybe in the future she'll work through the fear of risk. I hope so. For now, I'm coaching my teams and she won't be on them (which was something she needed anyway).

Apologies for the length, but this was the first time I'd laid out the entire issue for myself.

GROW UP!! I can’t believe you actually told your DD NOT to play MS ball because you are the coach! Don’t you realize the value of playing school sports? The lessons and growth she will gain physically, mentally and socially? And you want her to not experience that b/c you are the coach and you don’t feel she will play up to your standards? Middle School standards mind you! My DD would tell me to Phukc off! Maybe you should quit as MS coach; honestly.

You failed her? You created a character flaw? She will never take a risk? Have you ever played an instrument up on stage? Have you ever committed yourself to the monthly responsibilities and community service events with GS/BS? This girl has a lot more character and guts than you do, that’s for sure.

For now I’m coaching my teams and she won’t be on them (which was something she needed anyway)

Well goody goody two shoes for you, you finally got what you want! I honestly can’t believe I am reading this and you actually said these things to your kid.

Look, right now she isn’t showing the competitive level you want. But it’s good enough for her. At this age the softball competitiveness can take a drastic jump; all of a sudden she is only “good”, and she might not want to put the time in to “keep up” with the others. That’s okay. It doesn’t mean she doesn’t want to spend time with you and keep playing!

My DD is a pitcher. She is decent, not a #1, but decent. Somewhere along the way she decided she was happy with the level she was pitching at. She essentially told me she didn’t want to take lessons anymore; (and I don’t have the knowledge to teach pitching) so this was the moment where she decided to stop pushing. But at this point I didn’t abandon her? I didn’t throw a hissy fit and tell her I’m not going to play catch with her anymore. Give me a break! We still throw year-round, she plays year round. She is now a #2/3 pitcher and 2nd baseman; she is very happy and truly loves playing. She also does other things, including work, relaxing & enjoying her teenage HS years.

I’m sorry but your post really pissed me off. My advice: Don’t look at your softball time with your DD as training. Just ask her if she wants to have a catch or take some swings every now and again.

Oh, one thing you never mentioned in your post is her mother. If she is no longer with us I am sorry, but if she perhaps you need to spend more time with your her, she is probably the one you’re failing.

Ciao

 

[grcsftbll]

Ah. I get it now.

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

GROW UP!!...Ciao

All I have to say is thanks for taking the time to read my post.

 

[jacman]

GROW UP!! I can’t believe you actually told your DD NOT to play MS ball because you are the coach! Don’t you realize the value of playing school sports? The lessons and growth she will gain physically, mentally and socially? And you want her to not experience that b/c you are the coach and you don’t feel she will play up to your standards? Middle School standards mind you! My DD would tell me to Phukc off! Maybe you should quit as MS coach; honestly.

You failed her? You created a character flaw? She will never take a risk? Have you ever played an instrument up on stage? Have you ever committed yourself to the monthly responsibilities and community service events with GS/BS? This girl has a lot more character and guts than you do, that’s for sure.

For now I’m coaching my teams and she won’t be on them (which was something she needed anyway)

Well goody goody two shoes for you, you finally got what you want! I honestly can’t believe I am reading this and you actually said these things to your kid.

Look, right now she isn’t showing the competitive level you want. But it’s good enough for her. At this age the softball competitiveness can take a drastic jump; all of a sudden she is only “good”, and she might not want to put the time in to “keep up” with the others. That’s okay. It doesn’t mean she doesn’t want to spend time with you and keep playing!

My DD is a pitcher. She is decent, not a #1, but decent. Somewhere along the way she decided she was happy with the level she was pitching at. She essentially told me she didn’t want to take lessons anymore; (and I don’t have the knowledge to teach pitching) so this was the moment where she decided to stop pushing. But at this point I didn’t abandon her? I didn’t throw a hissy fit and tell her I’m not going to play catch with her anymore. Give me a break! We still throw year-round, she plays year round. She is now a #2/3 pitcher and 2nd baseman; she is very happy and truly loves playing. She also does other things, including work, relaxing & enjoying her teenage HS years.

I’m sorry but your post really pissed me off. My advice: Don’t look at your softball time with your DD as training. Just ask her if she wants to have a catch or take some swings every now and again.

Oh, one thing you never mentioned in your post is her mother. If she is no longer with us I am sorry, but if she perhaps you need to spend more time with your her, she is probably the one you’re failing.

Ciao

Well, Lickety Split, you have certainly made a passionate investment in the conversation. You make some worthy observations, but I fear your anger clouded what might have been a thoughtful and useful response. Nobody here will question you're right to express disagreement; perhaps, however, we could tone down the personal insults a bit. Buckeye has taken the risk of revealing a personal struggle with us. I'm pretty sure he wasn't looking to become the little critter in a whack-a-mole game.

You indicate he over-reacted. I think perhaps he did. My interpretation is that he gave his DD choices and some responsibility for those choices, but seemed more motivated by his own frustration than by his what was best for his DD. Don't read for a moment that I think he doesn't care deeply for his DD. Just saying that in the conversation he described I felt like his frustration was more at the front of his thoughts. Not ideal, maybe, but every parent knows both sides of that line.

Based on my read of your comments, you are not a parent who coaches, or at least who hasn't coached his or her own child. There can be some very challenging tensions that can't possibly be understood if they haven't been experienced. When you expect every kid on the team to stretch limits and improve - which requires trusting the coach implicitly - and your own kid won't buy in, you can have a real problem as a coach. It can put a lot of pressure on your kid, too. I hope that's obvious to you. Sometimes kids do better with other leadership that doesn't carry "home baggage" with it. I've coached my DD (14yo) through Rec Ball, middle school, and I'm still coaching (AC) her TB team. Now that she's in High School, I'm giving her a break for the school team (not that the HC for school would take me on, but I'm not going to offer). DD and I have worked well with the agreement that I will be only a coach on the field and she will be only a player, but she's still wishes for a little more space at times. It seems to me that Buckeye has a pretty good handle on this issue, and he's to be commended for wrestling with it honestly. Many, maybe most, coaches/parents don't even seek that fine point of balance.

I offer that perspective on coaching as someone who also has about 15 years of experience as a certified BSA leader, which I note from your post is of value to you. It is to me as well. I held positions from Assistant Scoutmaster to Unit Commissioner, with a couple others in between. Both my sons are Eagle Scouts. So am I. So was my father. And my brother and his son. That's a pretty solid commitment from a family over generations. So I believe I'm qualified to say that coaching your own child at a level of high expectation is tougher than helping him through scouts - even as one of the troop leaders. There's a lot of room in scouts for boys to work at their own pace. The best sports teams need all players committing their best efforts together and at once for the common goal of the team.

Now, I would say that a rec team can accept a casual commitment (although I always expected more, and generally got it). But a school team or a travel team should expect more. Players unwilling to make a more extraordinary commitment to a sport should be able to enjoy rec ball. Otherwise they drag a team down. Please be clear here. I'm not talking about reaching some "competitive level," but about a competitive EFFORT. That's important enough a distinction to say it again. It's about a competitive EFFORT. Buckeye isn't unhappy about the level. It's about the EFFORT.

My DD knows that playing softball is up to her. She's committed to it to such a level, however, that I expect her to pursue her highest abilities. She shares that expectation. In fact, right now (almost 10:30pm) she's trying to finish her homework so she can spend a few minutes on some pitching drills before she goes to bed. Tonight she doesn't really want to do drills. I'm making her do them tonight, but cutting back to just 10 minutes worth so she honors her personal commitment to improve while honoring the greater importance of her schoolwork. Last night, I had to stop her practice so she could get back to homework. If she loses the drive to play, however, she can stop at her choice. I will weep uncontrollably for a time and then let her move on. I might keep coaching, because I really enjoy it.

Which brings me to this note. We all want our kids to enjoy certain things we as parents have enjoyed over our lives. We want to share that experience of common appreciation over something that binds us. I hear Buckeye expressing a loss of something he truly wanted to share with his daughter that she hasn't shown to same interest in. I don't see anything wrong with that presenting him with some tough moments. If she never comes back to ball, I'm sure something else will develop; that doesn't make today any easier.

I don't want my kids to try and be great at everything. I couldn't care less if they become experts at video games. But I expect them to be their own best at something - something they love. For one DS, it's music. For another - well - nobody knows where he's going to land (but he's on his own, gainfully employed, and has never been arrested!). For DD, it's softball. We all need something to pursue with our heart and dreams. And as parents, I suggest that it is our responsibility to help our kids discover and pursue those dreams to their fullest. It's unclear what your daughter will choose to pursue. But since she apparently has your permission to tell you F ... off when you expect a high standard, I'm guessing you won't share the joy and satisfaction of that pursuit with her. More's the pity.

(Almost forgot to mention my wife. DW catches most of DD's pitching practices and attends most of her hitting lessons. But we don't let her play in the games because she doesn't really understand dropped 3rd strikes or foul tips.)