- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,798
- 63
elite pitchers inter. rotation or not
- Thread starter durwood
- Start date
Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch
Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.
Mike, Sorry to be so long in replying, I was out of town. This will be long and everyone, feel free to pile on with criticisms on these drills. Mike, you wrote you read the internal rotation thread so you understand the concept. The drills I use are basically backwards chaining from the release point. All drills are done with the feet on the power line, the front foot, shoulder and hip at 45 degrees to the power line. As I mentioned I got most of this from reading her book and then attending Cheri Kempf's clinics but Boardmembers thread really took it to another level. The first drill I use is just a flip drill isolating the wrist and fingers, the arm is straight down. The amount of wrist involvement in the release is a topic I see debated a lot. From what I read and hear if you are from the Rita Lynn Gilman/Michelle Smith/Cat Osterman camp the wrist is very important. On the other hand Rick Pauly and Bill Hillhouse say the fingers are more important. Rick had in another thread that putting a bowling glove on the throwing hand which stabilizes the wrist in place will only reduce the speed by 1 or 2 mph. Regardless I think everyone can agree using all the levers in the arm contributes to speed. If the pitcher's motion becomes relaxed and natural this may become a no teach. A radar gun will tell the pitcher what works best for them but I'd like to hear opinions on this. The second drill would be the holding the ball like a "glass of water" starting at the 7 to 8 o'clock position with the elbow almost touching the rib cage, going through the release point and throwing with wrist and fingers propelling the ball to a catcher or a net. This helps the pitcher to start feeling the rotation of the forearm. This is the middle of internal rotation but if you don't want to teach wrist snap don't use this drill as it tends to makes the wrist c**k as you hold the glass in an upright position as long as possible before pouring it out. The third would be what Boardmember described as the 2nd most important drill. Get the pitcher in a symmetrical position, with the throwing hand at the 9 o'clock position with the hand palm up, thumb on top of the ball and the glove hand at 3 o'clock and pull down together getting the internal rotation going with the throwing arm pulling down, the elbow leading toward the side of the torso and the glove arm coming down to the front of the stride leg thigh. As the elbow comes to the side, the upper arm slows and the forearm whips past the thigh with the rotation of the ulna and radius bones. All three of these drills I like beginning pitchers to look down and watch the release just to see what it looks like. I have heard Cat in an interview say she had very little follow through when she was younger, just to reinforce the trapping against the torso and deceleration of the upper arm and whip of the lower arm, wrist and fingers. I also like them to throw into a net rather than to a catcher. Their release will be all over the place and you're really teaching sequencing of the arm not the release point just yet. The next drill is Boardmember's "show it and throw it drill". I use this drill from both a static and dynamic start. For the static drill have them start in the stride position with the glove arm up at 3 o'clock and the throwing arm with the ball at 12 o'clock, the Super K. The throwing arm should be slightly bent. They pull down through the 9 o'clock palm up position to the "glass of water" to the release and then to elbow release. You asked what elbow release is and I would describe it as the end of internal rotation where the upper arm (humerus bone) finishes its rotation in the shoulder socket. The result is the elbow flying away from the side of the torso and releasing the energy remaining in the arm. With the dynamic form of the drill I have them starting with their feet and hands together, stride to toe touch as they swing the arms up to the Super K position and let the heel drop after they start to pull down. With all these drills if you are working with someone whose has the muscle memory of pulling down with their hand on top of the ball, you will need to watch them at the top of the motion to keep them from turning the ball over as soon as they start the motion down. Hope this made sense and helped.
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,387
- 113
Bill, If it is I apologize. Thought you felt the fingers were more important in creating spin than the wrist. For example in throwing the rise don't you say to think more of installing a light bulb in a socket using your fingers rather than turning a door knob with your wrist? Maybe I misunderstood your analogy. I have read the Hillhouse newsletter for several years and here is a quote that sort of clarifies where I was coming from with my statement but definitely backs up Bill's objection to being quoted out of context. This is from his newsletter of 10/04/04. Again I meant no disrespect or would never try and speak for Bill. Here is his words.
"Especially at young ages, I would encourage all pitchers NOW to transform the curves and fastballs into rises and drops. The change is subtle in terms of delivery and mostly has to do with how the fingers rotate the ball.
Probably the most common problem among pitchers trying to learn pitches (rise and drop) is, they are taught from an early age that the wrist is of the utmost importance. While the wrist plays a big role in every pitch, it's the FINGERS that spin the ball."
Bill's web site has a lot of great information and his clinics which I have been to three, are excellent. http://www.houseofpitching.com/
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,387
- 113
go4fpsb
I'm not sure if you misquoted me or not. To be BRUTALLY honest, I didn't read the thread. But I think it's a generalization to say the fingers are more important than the wrist. I think the wrist is overplayed in pitching and the fingers are underplayed. But that's not to say one is more important than the other... the arm needs 3 elements to be efficient: elbow, wrist, and fingers. When you overdo one, then you are under doing the other 2. This is bad and taught very commonly, often times without people realizing what they are doing. A lot of people seem to think the wrist snap substitutes for the fingers in how to spin the ball. Alot of this fallacy begins with those 'wrist flip' drills which so many people do from the start of their learning.
I think a lot of people make things WAYYYYYYY too difficult and technical on this forum. I say that with knowing that everyone is trying their best to understand what to do and what is right. But still. Some are making this much harder than it needs to be. often times at my clinics I'm told that I am oversimplifying this... my response is NO, others are just over complicating it. Believe me, if this was as hard and complicated as people are making it out to be, then I couldn't have done what I've done in my career.
Bill
I'm not sure if you misquoted me or not. To be BRUTALLY honest, I didn't read the thread. But I think it's a generalization to say the fingers are more important than the wrist. I think the wrist is overplayed in pitching and the fingers are underplayed. But that's not to say one is more important than the other... the arm needs 3 elements to be efficient: elbow, wrist, and fingers. When you overdo one, then you are under doing the other 2. This is bad and taught very commonly, often times without people realizing what they are doing. A lot of people seem to think the wrist snap substitutes for the fingers in how to spin the ball. Alot of this fallacy begins with those 'wrist flip' drills which so many people do from the start of their learning.
I think a lot of people make things WAYYYYYYY too difficult and technical on this forum. I say that with knowing that everyone is trying their best to understand what to do and what is right. But still. Some are making this much harder than it needs to be. often times at my clinics I'm told that I am oversimplifying this... my response is NO, others are just over complicating it. Believe me, if this was as hard and complicated as people are making it out to be, then I couldn't have done what I've done in my career.
Bill
- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,798
- 63
Bill.....Although I understand why you said what you said........
Respectfully..........What you said couldn't be FURTHER from the truth.........
It actually IS that difficult FOR MOST..........
Otherwise......All men could just pick up a ball and throw like you........And all women could pick up a ball and throw like Finch........
Nothing could be further from the truth........
In fact.......MOST men can't/don't throw like you.......And MOST women can't/don't throw like Finch.......
Half the reason is lacking NATURAL COORDINATION.........The other half IS HORRIBLE INSTRUCTION.............
Half the proof is...........Not all pitchers taught to throw correctly can begin to reach upper level potential.......Because they lack NATURAL COORDINATION.......
The other half of the proof is some pitchers, without ANY INSTRUCTION, reach the levels you have..........
It is NATURAL FOR SOME......And completely UN-NATURAL *FOR MOST* trying to do it..........
There is FAR TOO MUCH BAD instruction out there that outweighs the good......
In fact, my original intention in the "internal rotation thread" was to make people aware of what's right and what's wrong........Not teach them in an internet forum how to pitch......
I can't tell you how many people who've read the thread are saying..."I Get it now".....even if they can't do it.......They can spot it when it's WRONG.....
And that will go along way toward seeking good instruction for their DD's.......
Respectfully..........What you said couldn't be FURTHER from the truth.........
It actually IS that difficult FOR MOST..........
Otherwise......All men could just pick up a ball and throw like you........And all women could pick up a ball and throw like Finch........
Nothing could be further from the truth........
In fact.......MOST men can't/don't throw like you.......And MOST women can't/don't throw like Finch.......
Half the reason is lacking NATURAL COORDINATION.........The other half IS HORRIBLE INSTRUCTION.............
Half the proof is...........Not all pitchers taught to throw correctly can begin to reach upper level potential.......Because they lack NATURAL COORDINATION.......
The other half of the proof is some pitchers, without ANY INSTRUCTION, reach the levels you have..........
It is NATURAL FOR SOME......And completely UN-NATURAL *FOR MOST* trying to do it..........
There is FAR TOO MUCH BAD instruction out there that outweighs the good......
In fact, my original intention in the "internal rotation thread" was to make people aware of what's right and what's wrong........Not teach them in an internet forum how to pitch......
I can't tell you how many people who've read the thread are saying..."I Get it now".....even if they can't do it.......They can spot it when it's WRONG.....
And that will go along way toward seeking good instruction for their DD's.......
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,387
- 113
BM
First of all, with all due respect, you missed my point. I never said this was easy. I never said it doesn't take years to be able to do this at a high level. All I'm saying is people analyze this stuff and micromanage everything to the point that this seems much harder than it is. I believe this is what makes it so difficult. Of course bad instruction has a lot to do with pitcher's poor development. That is obvious. As in any sport, there are people who are gifted and those who are not. And maybe we'll have to just agree to disagree but, I think a lot of the problem with pitching development is that nobody wants to just see what is natural... they have to over analyze every detail with a fine tooth comb.
Bill
First of all, with all due respect, you missed my point. I never said this was easy. I never said it doesn't take years to be able to do this at a high level. All I'm saying is people analyze this stuff and micromanage everything to the point that this seems much harder than it is. I believe this is what makes it so difficult. Of course bad instruction has a lot to do with pitcher's poor development. That is obvious. As in any sport, there are people who are gifted and those who are not. And maybe we'll have to just agree to disagree but, I think a lot of the problem with pitching development is that nobody wants to just see what is natural... they have to over analyze every detail with a fine tooth comb.
Bill
Let me add my two cents. One problem with the micro managing of the pitching mechanics is that there are probably too many kids pitching that should be looking at other positions. The kids who, by and large are pretty good, pick up a lot of pitching naturally. Good instruction is key, but they have a natural ability to hear it, see it and then do it. They can learn the details to perfect something, but they don't need them to do it. So if you take an uncoordinated kid and try to robotically make them a pitcher then you need to discuss all kinds of complicated things like internal rotation to try to get them to understand something that should come naturally. It's like teaching someone who has no musical inclinations how to play an instrument. It's got to be extremely difficult and you will not get a concert pianists out of the deal.
I can't tell you how many girls I see, that should not be pitching at all. By age 14, there is generally a natural order of only the good survive, but some continue through HS. It seems that their folks and coach has no clue, except for what the cheap radar gun says.
When I start hearing that Janie has 7 pitchers and she is 12, I know there is going to be a problem. Few girls stay around long enough to get straightened out and they go from pitching coach to pitching coach, looking for someone that will agree that they are throwing a screw ball, etc.
But by 14, the young lady that is throwing correctly and setting attainable goals is better than the stud that was throwing hard at age 12.
I often hear the question, "why is she winning ball games with only a fastball and a change up?" and I tell them that her proper form and good muscle memory is a natural progression to success. After they get that, they can progress rather quickly.
When I start hearing that Janie has 7 pitchers and she is 12, I know there is going to be a problem. Few girls stay around long enough to get straightened out and they go from pitching coach to pitching coach, looking for someone that will agree that they are throwing a screw ball, etc.
But by 14, the young lady that is throwing correctly and setting attainable goals is better than the stud that was throwing hard at age 12.
I often hear the question, "why is she winning ball games with only a fastball and a change up?" and I tell them that her proper form and good muscle memory is a natural progression to success. After they get that, they can progress rather quickly.
Amy, there are too many kids pitching that really shouldn't be doing it. Thus the need to have crazy drills and practice routines that are useless. All you really need to be competitive is a fastball and changeup if you have good mechanics and control. Most pitchers that are elite very seldom master more than two pitches with a third one that is adequate. To hear that a mediocre kid at 14U has 6-7 pitches is outrageous but happens all of the time. Most kids I see have no idea how their ball is spinning let alone being able to make it spin in the desired fashion.
