Delay/"Lookback"

[smddad]

Good discussion.

I do not think I explained this as well as I could have. In my example above, the batter runner has merely over ran 1st, turned around and began slowly moving back to first, no actual move toward second, she has not "rounded" the base. She doesn't stop. The way it was explained to me, the runner turns or does her about face toward second. I can't think of any reason it matters which way she turns but that was the way it was explained to me.

I'm thinking of this as a pre planned play. Does anyone have the feeling that this situation is ripe for a bad call? I picture the ump not realizing she did not go back to first. I think in an ideal world, the runner leaves before the ball is in the circle.

LOOK BACK RULE.
The “Look Back” rule shall be in effect for all runners when the ball is live, the batter-runner has touched first base or has 
been declared out, and the
pitcher has possession and control of the ball within the pitcher’s circle. The pitcher is considered to be in the pitcher’s circle 
when both feet are on or within the lines.

1. When a runner is legitimately off a base after a pitch or as a result of a batter completing a turn at bat, and while the 
pitcher has control
of the ball within the eight foot radius of the pitcher’s plate, the runner may stop once, but then must immediately return to 
the base or attempt to advance to the next base.

2. Once the runner stops at a base for any reason, the runner will be declared out if leaving the base.

3. Responsibilities of the batter-runner after touching first base, and while the pitcher has control of the ball within the eight 
foot radius of the pitcher’s plate. This includes a base on balls or a dropped third strike.
  a. A batter-runner who rounds first base toward second base may stop once, but then must immediately 
      non-stop return to first base or attempt to advance non-stop to second base.
  b. A batter-runner who over-runs first base toward right field, turns left and immediately stops, must then 
      return non-stop to first base or attempt to advance non-stop to second base.
  c. A batter-runner who over-runs first base toward right field, turns left and moves directly toward second 
      base and stops is committed to second base and must attempt to advance non-stop to second base.
  d. A batter-runner who over-runs first base toward right field, turns left and moves back toward the infield 
      in any direction except directly toward second base is committed to first base and must return non-stop 
      to first base. 
  e. A batter-runner who over-runs first base toward right field, and turns right, is committed to first base and 
      must return non-stop to first base.

EFFECT - Section 7-T (1-3): The ball is dead. “No pitch” is declared when applicable, and the runner is out. When more
than one runner is off base, if one is called out, the ball is dead and other runners are returned to the last base touched. 
One runner only may be called out.

EXCEPTION: The runner will not be declared out if
  1. A play is made on any runner. A fake throw is considered a play,
  2. The pitcher no longer has possession of the ball within the eight foot radius, or
  3. The pitcher releases the ball on a pitch to the batter.

 

[Umpire]

As others have said, until the elements, ALL of the elements, of a rule are established, then there is no rule to enforce. Pitcher + In Possession of Ball + In Circle.

Unless they are all met, you might as well consider the ball to be laying on the ground in the outfield.

There are several different scenarios when the ball is returned to the pitcher with respect to what the batter-runner can and cannot do, but none apply here.

 

[erniekru]

I'm actually browsing this thread after reading the 2015 ASA rulebook looking for real world examples. 8T-3C-3/4/5 says a batter runner who overruns first toward right field, turns left and moves directly toward second base and stops, is committed to second base and must attempt to advance non-stop to second base(3). (4) ...turns left and moves back toward the infield in any direction except directly toward second base, is committed to first base and must return non-stop to first base. (5).., and turns right, is committed to first base and must return non-stop to first base.

To me, if your base runner turns left and proceeds in any direction of the infield besides second base, she is committed to return to first.

 

[Eric F]

I'm actually browsing this thread after reading the 2015 ASA rulebook looking for real world examples. 8T-3C-3/4/5 says a batter runner who overruns first toward right field, turns left and moves directly toward second base and stops, is committed to second base and must attempt to advance non-stop to second base(3). (4) ...turns left and moves back toward the infield in any direction except directly toward second base, is committed to first base and must return non-stop to first base. (5).., and turns right, is committed to first base and must return non-stop to first base.

To me, if your base runner turns left and proceeds in any direction of the infield besides second base, she is committed to return to first.

...when the P has control of the ball in the circle.

 

[Sweet Lou]

Unrelated to the discussion at hand but, if the pitcher catches a fly ball while in the circle, can a base runner tag up and try to advance?

Throwout the question whether or not they should try to advance; can they make an attempt to do so or do they immediately violate the look-back rule by leaving the base in this situation?

 

[Eric F]

Unrelated to the discussion at hand but, if the pitcher catches a fly ball while in the circle, can a base runner tag up and try to advance?

Throwout the question whether or not they should try to advance; can they make an attempt to do so or do they immediately violate the look-back rule by leaving the base in this situation?

I don't know the answer to your question at a rules level, but...

...are you really going to tag up and run when the ball is caught by the pitcher??

 

[CPEM]

Unrelated to the discussion at hand but, if the pitcher catches a fly ball while in the circle, can a base runner tag up and try to advance?

Throwout the question whether or not they should try to advance; can they make an attempt to do so or do they immediately violate the look-back rule by leaving the base in this situation?

ASA Rules Supplement #34-E:
A pitcher fielding a ball in the circle is an infielder and runners can leave their base. If runners leave their base, the same rule applies while the pitcher holds the ball in the circle: once the runner stops, they must decide which way to continue or be called out.

 

[Umpire]

If you're going to introduce a new play, please do so in a new thread. That's been requested many times. Changing the scenario causes confusion, introduces inaccurate/irrelevant information, causes problems and causes a thread to go in perpetuity.

All of the situations in the rules book about the batter-runner and the pitcher are designed to cover the possibilities, generally speaking, when the ball is returned to the pitcher and then the batter-runner reaches 1st base. Overrunning and coming back before the pitcher even has the ball is treated like any other situation.

 

[chinamigarden]

I don't know the answer to your question at a rules level, but...

...are you really going to tag up and run when the ball is caught by the pitcher??

If both middle infielders are drawn in by the pop up and no one is on second, you might think about it if you have a speedy runner and surprise is on your side.

 

[ScottyDont]

Does it have to be the pitcher with the ball in the circle? I was under the impression that it could be any fielder with possession in the circle (and not in the act of making a play).