DD struggling- New mechanics vs Old Mechanics

[97bucketdad]

First of all, I am a big fan of the forum, and have followed it for a couple years now. Both the coaches and parents that comment are great; tons of great information.

DD just started her third year of club softball, second year with same 14U team. We made the decision about 6 months ago to change pitching coaches. I would like to describe on this post what she was taught in the past and what she is learning now. I feel like we made the right decision in changing things up, but right now, DD is in a funk, almost like a mental block. She has never struggled the way she is now. Has anybody else tried to start over after a couple years of doing things a certain way? What were the results; did she ever recover? DD is a big kid at 5’10” 145 lbs, works her tail off, and can have a future in this sport, but she looks at me right now like she may be ready to throw in the towel.

PC #1- started with DD from the ground up. She is a former pitcher, could demonstrate mechanics and spins. Teaches very open mechanics, snap the ball below the belly button, long stride, figure 4 finish.
Keywords during lesson were fast arm and pull your 4. Taught DD roll over drop with shortened stride and weight forward, change up with circle grip that comes out of the back of her hand. Both are great pitches. Started working a lot on rise, and introduced curve and screw, but I never thought she was solid enough on the others to spend any time on them. The most valuable thing this coach taught was the mental part of the game, and I hate that she is no longer getting that. Could never teach DD how to throw hard, she has never had an effective fast ball. Her drop has been her fastest pitch, but was never thrown over 52mph.

PC#2- saw this coach for one lesson over a year ago. He is a former pitcher, and demonstrated what he teaches. He is the coach for a lot of the local hard throwing kids and has the gun on for every pitch. His drills included stopping the hand at the hip to snap the ball, while standing completely closed to the catcher, with the hello elbow finish. He made it clear that DD would never throw the ball hard with her current mechanics. I didn’t feel that what he was teaching was safe and didn’t go back.

PC#3- saw this coach for the first time close to a year ago. He is a former pitcher, and demonstrates what he teaches. Takes video regularly, and compares side by side with former male and female pitchers. The first time he saw her he said she would never throw hard with her current mechanics. The things he described were her arm was too fast, snap was too far ahead of her hip, she was getting into her leg finish too early, essentially snapping the ball with one leg on the ground. He said her timing was a mess, and she had to get her glove under control because it was pulling her shoulder around. Also, because she was open during the entire pitch, pulling her 4 at the end was pulling her beyond open. I think Amy calls it the donkey kick for that reason.

In the first lesson he was able to teach her to throw a fast ball faster than she had ever thrown before, with much less effort. He does teach to stop the hand at the hip, but explained that she needs to learn where to snap, and then he doesn’t care how she follows through. He also teaches ball to 2nd base at 3 o’clock, but as long as she is throwing hard, doesn’t try to correct that it isn’t. He is working to get her hips at a 45 degree angle at release. I was worried that he was converting her to a step style pitch because it looks so different, but her stride is still 6 feet long, her pitch is just more under control.

He has been willing not to mess with her drop and change up to this point because they have remained effective, but with her recent struggles, he thinks she can’t overcome the old mechanics if she is throwing that way every other pitch. Despite it being somewhat downplayed on this forum, I feel her glove arm is her biggest problem. It seems in drills she can keep it under control and does fine, but as soon as she gets on the mound, she feels she needs to muscle the ball and the glove goes flying again.

Anyways, sorry for the long post. I know I left things out, but I am hoping there are some parents and coaches that have gone through something similar and can offer some advise and or encouragement. Again, she has never been in a funk like this, and I am really hoping to get her through it. Also, PC#3 does not teach IR, but can we still work with what he does teach?

 

[ArmWhip]

It sounds like he doesn't really understand proper mechanics, this doesn't mean that everything he tells her is wrong. If you can view the video can you see if your DD has any IR going?

If her glove is pulling her shoulder around how is she staying open?

Arm too fast? Maybe he means early.

Snap too far ahead of her hip? What exactly does this mean?

Yes, learning new mechanics can be very stressful, you just hope that the coach knows what he is doing.

 

[97bucketdad]

Yes, there is IR, it looks like the ball is at 3rd base instead of under the ball at 3 o'clock, but when she stops at her hip, her hand is turning over.

We could see in the video that her hips and shoulders would not stay in line with each other.

He wants a slow arm to 3 o'clock, and yes, he said her arm was early. The longer the stride, the slower the arm needs to be.

In an open position from the side, you could see her release the ball almost at her front leg.

As for the glove, it almost seems that when she straightens the arm out, she loses control of it. Is keeping that arm bent a focus for anybody? She used to slap, and it was the back of her leg she was hitting. When we decided to work on it, we got rid of the slap first. Then we started pitching with her glove hand in her pocket, and I just had her start pitching into her glove again. It is a tough one to break.

 

[sluggers]

He does teach to stop the hand at the hip

????? Huh? Could someone please explain this to me, because I don't get it.

The longer the stride, the slower the arm needs to be.

The arm and body move in sync. People look at the specific position of the arm relative to the body at 9-12-3-6.

However, I've never heard a fix for a lack of timing this described as "slowing the arm". If the arm is early, then you start the arm moving forward later.

If she is on her front foot when she throws, she wants to slow down her body and speed up her arm.

In an open position from the side, you could see her release the ball almost at her front leg.

This is called "being on her front foot". It is probably a carry over from the rollover drop. She is a little old to be having that problem, but it can be fixed. It sounds like she is having timing problems. Throwing a ball "hard" is about transferring momentum from the body to the ball. Timing is everything in pitching.

Could you post a video her?

 

[Jojo]

I'm concerned about her stopping her hand. Does he mean stopping the hand, stopping the arm? Have you watched any slow motion video's of top pitchers? Does what he teach differ from what they are doing, especially in the release portion?
I don't really like the idea of her trying to slow the arm down around 3:00 and then stopping it.
Without a video we really cannot see the timing issue. If she slows the arm down, yes she will release closer to her hip but if she keeps the arm fast she can just release the ball sooner.
From what you describe my mental picture is that she is throwing her weight forward as she lands or right after she lands. Shoulders turning, back leg up in the air at release.
Sounds like she could be trying to use the upper body only to release the ball, especially her shoulders. Pulling the shoulders around will also cause her to release out front. Could also explain her glove flying out.
In her video are her shoulders facing the catcher at release?,

 

[MandM]

It is hard to comment without seeing your daughter pitch and getting a perspective on this new coaches philosophy- as to whether she is on the right track now. I think this forum has a lot of good info on what constitutes "good mechanics"- there are also good instructional videos (right view pro e.g. and others)- that break things down so you can compare what he says to what is generally accepted. As my DD is having similar issues, the question is - what is it going to take to break the bad habits- and to develop more fluid, efficient and correct mechanics that take advantage of your DD's natural gifts- size , determination and (I am guessing) athleticism. Diagnosis is the first step- a prescription for correction is the second- and patience is the third. I can tell you that we sought the advice of two separate PC who were recommended by others on this site who are in my area (thx BTW!)- both had the same diagnosis- and they had similar prescriptions- which has been a series of air-thru drills that break down components of the pitch- and repetition- there has been a general moratorium on full motion pitching (FMP)- because as they both said- she will quickly revert to old mechanics until her body can feel the difference- in fact the times she has FMP- she made similar mistakes- but at least now - she knew she was not in the right position. The other thing I was warned- and this is has also proven to be true- is that it will take alot of MENTAL ENERGY- she has to concentrate on where her body is and what it is doing - until it becomes second nature. I know that not everyone on this forum believes in "muscle memory"- but there sure is some old groove that my DD is working hard to break. I can see she is making progress- but it will not be a quick fix. Tell your DD to be patient- look to the future- maybe not this spring- but high school and beyond. If she is not at 55 now- so what- I bet that not every D1 pitcher was at the top of the heap as a 12U and 14U pitcher - Your job- don't get frustrated (I sometimes do)- be supportive- help her keep at it by focusing on where she wants to be in the future

 

[ArmWhip]

It sounds to me like she might be coming out of the IR too early and pushing the ball into release, this happens when you want to muscle the ball and don't stay relaxed. But you say that she stays open and typically pitchers that come out of IR early and push are closing the right side. Without video it's hard to picture what's going on. I will say this, trying to change muscle memory is a bitch, pitchers learn a certain feel to their motion and trying to get them to adopt a different feel is at times nearly impossible. Practicing the motion without a ball is must if you are trying to change her 'feel', put a ball in her hand and she will focus on 'throwing' and not the action that she is trying to change.

One thing that I adopted from golf that sometimes helps is to slow down, have her drop the speed of her motion a little (maybe 25%) at a time. So, 3-4 pitches at 75%, then 3-4 at 50%, then 25%. Do it first without a ball, remember the idea is to get her to feel her motion more. The one thing about pitching that can make this exercise difficult is the leap, it's impossible to leap in slow motion so I tell them to step.

Another thing that sometimes helps is to have her shadow pitch (no ball) in front of a mirror using the slow motion. Most people don't have a mirror that is large enough so I tell them to use a sliding glass door. You can do it from the inside at night or the outside during the day. This helps them connect what it feels like from the inside with what it looks like from the outside.

 

[97bucketdad]

Screwball, two tournaments ago, three weeks ago, we did just what you are suggesting with different tweaks for different pitches. We created “cues” for each pitch that she was to remind herself of before she threw. In pool play Saturday, she pitched the best we had seen in a long time, beating a reputable 16U team. Not by blowing it by anyone, but by hitting the corners with her drop, changeup just below the knees, and a slightly faster fastball, thrown with no follow through. Then on Sunday, I couldn’t believe it. She pitched well enough to win her only game, but the glove was flying and she was slapping again. I took some horrible video with my phone so I could show her. Yes, 55 would be a huge help because her off speed is very good.

Sluggers, I took video last night of three pitches, because I was arguing with PC regarding the follow through. She was throwing well with the follow through, but she can’t seem to find the right release point. Everything was high. He said she is missing the snap and needs to stop in order to force that snap. I agree timing is everything and she is struggling with it.

Like I said, I took a short video last night, but don’t know how to post it. I will try to figure it out later this morning. My initial thought was not to post any video. We have been very fortunate to have the help of a lot of well intentioned coaches & parents, and didn’t want to upset anyone that saw us looking elsewhere for help. But, the clock is ticking and I feel the knowledge on this board is second to none.

 

[97bucketdad]

MandM, thanks for the encouragement. Even PC suggested DD needs a break from pitching to keep her from continually reverting back. She will have the last two weeks in December, and I hope to have a plan and keep her from pitching during that time, but we have three tournaments scheduled before then. DD was gifted with size and determination, but never had a ton of natural athleticism. She does have to work at it.

ArmWhip, we have done a lot of slowing down and not throwing hard from a closer distance, then backing up trying to maintain the same motion. PC recommends mirror work so she can see when the glove flies out, but we don’t have a large mirror so I will have her pitch to me with and without a ball and tell her when the glove gets outside of her body.

Screwball, what you are describing with just abandoning the fastball is what we have done up to this point. She has been working on the rise and it is actually my favorite to catch because of the movement of the ball. The problem is she has real issues with her motion that will keep her from ever throwing hard enough with any pitch to continue much further.

 

[sluggers]

She was throwing well with the follow through, but she can’t seem to find the right release point. Everything was high. He said she is missing the snap and needs to stop in order to force that snap.

I've never heard that before.

There is no precise "release point" for a pitcher. Every kid is different, every field is different, every day is different, every pitch is different. So, trying to teach a kid to release the ball at a predefined point is an exercise in futility.

Teach your DD how to move the ball around. When she throws high, tell her to bounce the next pitch to the catcher. After she bounces the pitch in, then, have her throw the next pitch high. Rotate like this until she understands what it takes for her to throw high or throw low. You do the same thing for left and right. If you consistently practice this, she'll learn how to move the ball around the plate, which is what she has to do anyway.