DBSFA-(Drop-Barrel-Swing-Flat-Anonymous) a FFF thread

[chrispots]

I continue to see the leveling issue we call DBSF all over the place. Both my girls do it, many teammates/opponents do it, many DFP DDs do it.

Some claim it is an easy thing to correct, but I still have not seen a player actually correct it in real life or on video on this site. It is really puzzling to me. I get really frustrated because it seems so easy to fix. I disagree with others about why it is important to fix. I think it needs to be fixed for better zone coverage (try to hit a low inside strike with this pattern and you are dead meat), many other say it needs to be fixed to be able to handle fast pitching while adjusting to offspeed. My real world experience tells me that girls with this pattern can hold their own with speed but are vulnerable to good placement. I know others are working through the same issue so I wanted to see if there are better results if we share specific info about what we have tried, maybe someone even has the magic fix and can post video showing that it is possible to fix (after two years I am beginning to have my doubts).


I called this an FFF thread and that means (fiveframefree), but more generally, I am hoping we can avoid the whole "post a clip of Miggy and say do this" part of most threads, I think people posting real world video clips of their students and/or DDs is so much more helpful. That is why it is in the practical forum.

Here is some background....DD in all stars n the summer of 2014

[video]https://youtu.be/JFLu3dAmc9w[/video]

Swing from a couple of weeks back

[video]https://youtu.be/Uj3XL3clZtc[/video]

Between these two points (that are basically identical) we have done at least 100 hours of hitting work with the majority of focus on trying to come up with the magic elixer to get to this in games.

We have gotten to the point where she can do front toss and get her swing to where we want it leveling wise

[video]https://youtu.be/53oIHAc3V9U[/video]

But it just does not show up in games.

This is not really aimed at trying to fix my kid specifically, it is aimed at creating a little space here where the folks who are working on this now can maybe share ideas with some help from folks who have fixed it before (if you exist )

I was even thinking of having a competition between our daughters so they had some extra motivation to fix it, I know that Stick/Eric/Me at least have kids that are the same age and are trying to fix it, maybe if all the dads who are currently working on this got together and ponied up 10 bucks each then the kitty would be big enough to motivate the rugrats to fix it. I'll try anything at this point as you will see below.

What we are working on today will be golf swings, I will have her hitting wiffle balls off the ground with a wedge. The idea here is that low/inside location cannot be gotten to with a drop and drag swing. One of the things we do often during front toss when she is dropping is I will throw low and inside over and over again until she can hit one hard up the middle. This tells me she has the feeling of turning the barrel more. When she is dropping and dragging she is not capable of hitting a low inside pitch in fair territory, the swing path created means that she will coming across her body and hitting the ball towards the third base dugout. More than any advice I have been given about this issue, that one thing, working low and in is the thing that seems to install the feeling for her to be able to take some front toss cuts without dropping (it quickly comes back though). It is too hot to work during the day so we will do it at dusk and I will post a clip.

Anyone else starting to get "creative" in an attempt to fix this?

I have some thoughts on this as DD2 and DD3 struggle with this. DD1 has no overlap in her swing but doesn't suffer from DBSF. A few of my players do this but none as bad as DD2.

Everything I have read on this talks about the barrel and the hands (both top and bottom). I hit almost everyday and have even tried to force myself to swing in a DBSF pattern so I can try and feel what my DD is feeling.

Your DD has a nice golf swing...I too have been down that road and that is a road I want to talk about.

Before kids, I gave golf lessons. I was a 2 to 3 handicap golfer for a long time. I took up golf after a college baseball injury rendered my throwing arm useless. I use comparisons between golf and hitting all the time because of their relevance.

Ask yourself a question...why does your DD not DBSF with the golf club?

The obvious answer is that the ball is on the ground. The not so obvious answer is that she naturally allows her spine to tilt to the ball. This forward spine angle forms a "T" with her her spine and shoulders that naturally allows her rear shoulder to work under while still maintaining a "non-flattened" angle with the club shaft. Conversely, if you look her spine angle in her softball swings that angle is not prevalent (you can also see it in Perfect Circle's DD's swing except she has a good angle until she is loading the barrel into impact and she "snaps" her body upright flattening the barrel).

This is very crude but this is what I mean:


I think these do a good job of explaining this as well even though they are golf related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=283S9HgCZmw



So what's my point? It's very difficult to NOT swing level if you keep your shoulders level. If your posture is too upright, it is damn near impossible to swing the bat on an angled path. It's NOT where the barrel starts...look where Hugo starts her bat and look how her spine angle increases:

Tomorrow night at the cages, rather than throwing the bat like a helicopter propeller, I'm going to have her try to throw the bat at an angle similar to what Hugo has in the clip. I have seen a different the last 2 nights by having her start the bat on her shoulder as well.

Creative enough for you? Thoughts?

CP

 

[FP26]

I can tell you from personal experience that this is an affliction that is curable. My DD struggled with this at the younger ages as well. Specifically during her rec ball days. At that point in time, we focused more attention on the "fun" aspect of softball and really didn't spend a great deal of time working on in-depth mechanics. Once her goals began to materialize/change, it was time to adjust our practice habits and it became "game on!". One of our biggest challenges was the fact that she was VERY successful in rec ball, batting nearly .800 the season before joining a TB team. IMO, this success made her very reluctant to let go of what was in her mind providing the success.

To be honest, at that point in time, I had no idea what DBSF was, and had never even entered one of these forums. So my experience was purely my own based on what I knew about the swing at that point in time. What I had noticed then was that she was dropping her hands as the ball was approaching the plate. After reviewing some of her old videos, it is now quite obvious that she had a serious case of DBSF. There were really three things that, IMO, helped correct this problem. I will discuss each briefly.

1) Fake pitches - I started by doing soft toss from the side. I would toss her a few balls to hit and then fake one, watching her hands and bat during the process. If she dropped her hands during the fake, I would correct it. I then progressed to front toss with the same process. Constantly watching the hands to make sure they didn't drop before launch.

2) One-arm drills - As mentioned in a different thread, my DD has been using one-arm drills for some time. Although I really don't suggest she uses them anymore, they are a comfort thing to her. Every time we go to the cage, the first thing she will do is 10-15 with each arm. When performing the bottom hand drills, the focus is on finding location. Her goal is to keep the hand inside and above the ball, making sure that contact occurs with a downward sloping bat angle. She also focuses on releasing the bottom hand (ulnar deviation) into contact. When performing the top hand drills, her focus is imagining she is throwing the barrel through the ball. While she does do these off a tee at times, I actually prefer to do soft toss (side) with foam balls. I do not pay attention to where the ball goes. My focus is watching her hands and bat to ensure they are following the path I want to see. [Note: I consider the top hand drill as more important to cure DBSF. IMO, the top hand is the weak link in that inferior pattern, and correcting the use of the top hand is the quickest cure.]

3) Repetition, repetition, repetition. We worked with these specific drills for several sessions (probably 2 months) before I noticed a distinct difference in her swing.

DD's swing is far from perfect. There are things we continue to work on, but luckily DBSF is no longer one of them. Every once in a while, I will still fake a pitch when in the cage, just to be sure. At this point those fake pitches are usually greeted with a "Dad, really?!?!" Complete with a look on her face that reminds me of DW.

While I think JJ makes a good point regarding zone coverage, I am one that believes this affliction complicates timing. IMO, the DBSF swing pattern requires the barrel to travel a greater distance and therefore requires the hitter to commit earlier to her swing. Given that, the hitter will be more susceptible to a change in speeds. If I am asked to call pitches for DD during a game, these are things I watch for in other hitters to attempt to exploit. Also, while I like the golf swing idea, I consider DBSF more of a hand-eye coordination thing. The hands are moving and the barrel is being dropped while the pitch is in the air. The hitter is adjusting to the moving target, albeit incorrectly. The only true way to eliminate it is to also practice against a moving target. I am not saying that the golf swings will not be helpful, but I believe the amount of help will be limited.

NOTE: My DD has requested that I not post video of her, therefore I will not.

 

[JJsqueeze]

Good stuff guys. I am with you on the reasoning of the golf swing CP. that spine tilt is a big key, getting her to replace the scrunch and flatten with a tilt a whirl is a big driver of the golf idea along with what I said about the load to unload with no pause that is part of a golf swing.

FP-been there done that on the fake pitches, that has not helped transition the practice work to game swings, but it seems like it should have so I can see this working for a lot of kids. Just didn't help my DD. We used one arm swings for troubleshooting to see what she felt the roles of each hand were but not with any regularity. I'll work that in.

They both put in good work with me today. We're at the cages now...let's see if it holds up...tonight's the night!!!

 

[chrispots]

I wish we could see the 2 girls JJ posted in pink face-on to see their spine angle.

CP

 

[Cannonball]

Here is my kid hitting that ball:

 

[Greenmonsters]

Some thoughts on this FFF thread:
1) Can't tell without side video but in the golf swing it looks likes she bending toward the pitcher with the front hip?
2) The tilt is there with the golf swing, but although it changes slightly based on club length, the tilt never changes DURING a golf swing because the ball position is static. Tilt during a BB/SB swing needs to be dynamic to adjust to pitch height/location so I don't see the value in spending time on this other than pointing out the similarities and differences.
3) A good BB/SB swing actually should be level! Not with the ground, but with the shoulders (i.e., the plane of the bat path and shoulder rotation are parallel in a good swing) I'm not sure how many hitters actually recognize this, but for some it can be a missing piece of the puzzle.
4) IME, a DBSF swing does put an artificial ceiling on the level of pitching a hitter can have success against.
5) IMO, year-round competition is a key factor that is holding back some DD's progress. Any swing change requires creating new muscle memory, which requires repetition to the point where that muscle memory replaces the old movement pattern. How many reps? 1000s, some say 10,000 minimum until it becomes ingrained, automatic, and reproducible under stress. The kids are putting in the time, effort, and maybe even 10,000+ swings, so why slow/no progress? The new muscle memory associated with a swing change is most quickly and effectively developed under stress-free, non-game conditions. Every time a kid plays a game, scrimmage, friendly or any sort of competition where they have any interest in being successful prior to ingraining the new muscle memory, they naturally revert back to the old muscle memory pattern, which re-sets or at least sets back the clock on learning the new pattern muscle memory. In other words, they have practiced enough to get the new pattern right, and it looks good off the tee, front toss, and even BP, but they haven't practiced enough so that they can't do it wrong under stress. You know they have it right when there's no difference between practice and game swings. That's my theory.

 

[Perfect Circle]

I have seen a different the last 2 nights by having her start the bat on her shoulder as well.

 

[Perfect Circle]

M.Hanson scholars.... these clips ^ is from my library of what I call "Pasting the bat to the shoulder" there are many more. Hope JJ don't mind me using them on his post??? I'm hoping his main priority was posting your own DD.... I always have... good, bad & ugly....

In the clip of DD, you can see she had bat pasted, but still pulled it way back. It was a walkoff HR. To further throw her off, I was standing @ fence with the camera. Her instructions was: You gotta Help yourself...I'll be in the gap that I want the clip from, there won't be any fielders in my way.... So she was contorting to get the ball right to me in center/left..... It came right to me .... hit (Rolled) to the fence & bounced back

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Swing from a couple of weeks back

[video]https://youtu.be/Uj3XL3clZtc[/video]

I see three potential times that the hands could be lowered prematurely in a poor leveling approach.

1) There is a pitch low and away that is not swung at ... the hands do not track/level to this low pitch, but remain at shoulder level.

2) There is a dry swing made outside of the batter's box ... we see the hands not lowering first and a reasonable hand path of a "short-to" passing through an upright-vee.

3) There is an actual game swing. Again, the hands are not dropped first. This is a pitch high in the zone with contact made at approximately shoulder height.

 

[JJsqueeze]

who had 23 hours? I'll check the spreadsheet and send you your winnings. Well done sir.