Curve Ball... Palm Up or Palm Down?

[JJsqueeze]

I give up....I tried to justify a curveball break with that spin and the best I can come up with is a slight curve break at the end of the pitch due to the magnus effect cause by the "upwards" wind (relative) as the ball is dropping at the end. Someone please explain how this breaks towards a LHB. I would dismiss it out of hand if it wasn't Sarah Pauley pitching, probably being recorded by her dad and BM posting it as a curveball. All three have forgotten more about pitching between cups of coffee this morning than I will ever know...

 

[JJsqueeze]

Speaking of physics.... Seems to me the question is, "Does a ball that spins this way (i.e., clockwise to pitcher) break in the direction the seams are moving toward on the bottom of the ball (away from RH batter) or the direction the seams are moving on top of the ball (in to RH batter), or neither?"

This spin should have no effect on the ball flight if there is no wind. I could see a way for it to kind of knuckle because it is churning up the wind around the ball equally all of the way around and creating some unpredictable turbulence that could affect the flight in an unpredictable way... This video makes it hard because it is not straight on so I really can't see what direction the ball is breaking.

 

[starsnuffer]

I'm doubting that pitch breaks at all. Did Pauly throw the curve much? She's illegal 3 ways before she gets to release and I'm wondering if she's just trying to demonstrate a pitch that she didn't practice much.

Like Bucket Pinata said, a lot of "curve" balls are just outside fastballs.

The pitch Pauly is throwing is an outside fastball. Grip and hand contortions do not matter, spin alone dictates what the pitch is and how it moves, period.

-W

 

[Doug Romrell]

JJ said, "This spin should have no effect on the ball flight if there is no wind."

I'm not sure we know this.

The downward spin (facing pitch on baseline between home and 3B) is not in the direction of the pitch. The upward spin (facing pitch on baseline between home and 1B) is not in the direction of the pitch. Why would these two force necessarily cancel each other out. I don't think they would, as they are different (one is up, one is down), but I don't know.

I think it is easier to understand how a ball breaks (or tries to break) when the axis is closer to vertical and when the axis is closer to horizontal but near perpendicular to the direction of the pitch (axis closer to in-line with 1B and 3B as it leaves the pitcher's hand). I think it's much harder to understand the physics and which way, if any, the ball will break when the axis is horizontal from pitcher to catcher, as is the case with a cork-screw pitch.

 

[JJsqueeze]

Why would these two force necessarily cancel each other out. I don't think they would, as they are different (one is up, one is down), but I don't know.

You answered your own question my friend....opposing forces cancel each other out.

 

[Doug Romrell]

Okay... Here's something interesting (pay particular attention to the comments regarding The Magnus Effect on Other Pitches - Gyroball):

The Magnus effect: why pitches move - Home - TexasLeaguers.com - The Mechanics of Baseball

 

[Doug Romrell]

An intriguing point from that article --

"Wind tunnel studies have shown that this type of spin results in a smaller wake behind the ball. A smaller wake means less wind resistance which means a gyroball does not slow down as much as a fastball does on its way to the plate."

This fact (the gyroball fastball is a faster pitch than the drop, or forward/down rotating fastball) seems to make me think the gyroball pitch would be a good one to use to help throw off the batter's timing, no?

 

[BoardMember]

First of all guys.......There is ALWAYS "wind" acting on a projectile that is moving through air space.........Well it's actually called "air flow".........The only way there would be NO wind is if the projectile was standing still in the air space and the air was also "still"...........

Think of it this way.........A ball standing still in a 60mph wind would experience 60mph of air pressure on the "front" of the ball........Transversely, in a zero wind condition, a ball moving through the still air at 60mph experiences that same 60mph of air pressure on the front of the ball............

The question you have to ask is..........Is the trajectory of this ball and the spin of the ball parallel to each other.........Because if it is not.......The "air flow" would be "off parallel".......Or slightly to one side or the other relative to the spin direction........

So......If Sarah is throwing this pitch on an angle relative to the spin.........There will be acting pressure on the side of the ball vs. the front and back............

Later, I'm going to have my wife film me throwing an undercut or corkscrew curve using a ping-pong ball for enhanced effect........

I'm going to cut inside the ball with my index finger........but throwing it across my body relative to a straight target line......Creating some air flow shear effect on the side of the ball.............

Lets see which way it breaks!..........You're going to be surprised.........

 

[JJsqueeze]

Okay... Here's something interesting (pay particular attention to the comments regarding The Magnus Effect on Other Pitches - Gyroball):

The Magnus effect: why pitches*move - Home - TexasLeaguers.com - The Mechanics of Baseball

Yes....it is exciting to learn about the magnus effect if you are not familiar with it....opens up a whole new world. Now that you have read the article look at your post about axis-opposing forces etc....and be proud at how much you have grown in the last 10 minutes...

 

[JJsqueeze]

First of all guys.......There is ALWAYS "wind" acting on a projectile that is moving through air space.........Well it's actually called "air flow".........The only way there would be NO wind is if the projectile was standing still in the air space and the air was also "still"...........

Think of it this way.........A ball standing still in a 60mph wind would experience 60mph of air pressure on the "front" of the ball........Transversely, in a zero wind condition, a ball moving through the still air at 60mph experiences that same 60mph of air pressure on the front of the ball............

The question you have to ask is..........Is the trajectory of this ball and the spin of the ball parallel to each other.........Because if it is not.......The "air flow" would be "off parallel".......Or slightly to one side or the other relative to the spin direction........

So......If Sarah is throwing this pitch on an angle relative to the spin.........There will be acting pressure on the side of the ball vs. the front and back............

Later, I'm going to have my wife film me throwing an undercut or corkscrew curve using a ping-pong ball for enhanced effect........

I'm going to cut inside the ball with my index finger........but throwing it across my body relative to a straight target line......Creating some air flow shear effect on the side of the ball.............

Lets see which way it breaks!..........You're going to be surprised.........

agreed, and when I was trying to figure this out I thought about that, but this "relative" left to right wind would actually move the ball up or down due to magnus effect with a true bullet spin. I really think we would need a straight on view of this pith to get to the bottom of it. without seeing the exact axis of spin, the trajectory and any break...I am lost.


one thing to add- make the bullet spin off axis and everything changes...really need to see the front of the ball in slow motion...