Candrea says you only need a rise, drop, and change....but

[starsnuffer]

Are you saying that a curve ball is never on plane with the bat? Like one thigh or waist high? Any pitch can be hit a long way if put in the wrong place.

and I agree with your last sentence.

No, I said curve ball "low in the zone" on purpose. A curve ball waist high (or higher) is generally on plane with the bat head.


Fastpitch,

Yes, all pitches change planes, and all pitches drop, this is why you always see a good bat path slightly upwards through the zone (not as apparent as in baseball but still clear). Remember, batters are spending all of their time keeping that bat in the zone as long as possible and on the plane of the pitch as long as possible. It behooves the pitcher to try to screw that up as much as possible. Throwing a pitch "at the bat" shouldn't be plan A.

What people keep forgetting when this comes up is that the elite pitchers and mens pitchers don't just throw straight drops. They actually do throw drop curves and drop screws (same with rise balls), they just do this by putting a little english on the ball, and not pretending that they know a "whole new pitch. The idea is to be able to throw the ball AT any area in the zone and get it to cross the plate at ANY other area on command.

Most womens players that have a "drop curve" really throw an aborted roll-over drop that they never quite figured out how to master, so they just were told "oh you have a drop curve". That's where the problems begin.

-W

 

[CoachFP]

Good post!

 

[ArmWhip]

The plane of the swing/bat changes with the location of the pitch. The only time the swing/bat plane is truly horizontal is on a shoulder high pitch. Generally speaking the lower the pitch the steeper the plane of the swing so a low outside drop curve is close to matching the plane, whereas a drop screw is going against the plane. If you are talking strictly about avoiding the plane of the swing/bat then pitches that break in the vertical plane should be thrown up in the zone and pitches that move in the horizontal plane should be thrown down in the zone.

Inside-outside complicates things because outside pitches need to be hit deeper in the zone and the bat will be on slightly descending path, inside pitches need to be hit out in front and the bat will ascending a bit.

http://www.protectmyira.com/images/Swing_Plane_Clip.gif

 

[left turn]

Absolutist statements like, "Most womens players that have a "drop curve" really throw an aborted roll-over drop that they never quite figured out how to master, so they just were told "oh you have a drop curve". That's where the problems begin." makes a typically great discussion group difficult to read. To assuage all women with drop curves like this is just apalling.

My 12U DD uses a drop curve to elicit weak ground balls to the rightside of the infield (from a right handed batter). Thrown low and away, it will most often be met with a satisfying clang when the batter hits it off the end of the bat.

At this age, I don't see many batters that can successfully hit a well placed drop curve even if it is on the swing plane. We are working on a tight spin, late movement and missing the fat part of the bat. It works best whe she is able to work both sides of the plate without throwing it down the middle. For example hard in on the hands and then low and away with the drop curve. It was fun to see some 5 to 7 pitch innings this summer when she was executing like she is able.

 

[wannahit]

it seems to me that arizona state and ucla won the ncaa title with pitchers not throwing more than 3 different pitches, maybe less.

 

[chinamigarden]

Typically the best pitchers feature 3 pitches. They may learn a bunch of them, but by the time they hit college they go with the best 3 and focus on those. The girl who taught my dd how to throw a drop curve led all of DII with the losest era. She threw a roll over drop, a drop curve and a change up. Those were her three. She could throw others, but these were the best 3.

 

[ArmWhip]

At the 12U level any pitch on the low outside corner will most likely result in a weak ground ball, especially if it is a little off speed. My daughter made it work right through high school, which in our location and league was not at a very high level (about 20% of the girls played TB). Missing the sweet spot is another topic, different from working against the swing plane. And to be technically accurate all pitches are dropping as they cross the plate, even the riseball.

 

[Ken Krause]

When you're talking about the curve and the screw you also have to be sure you're defining your terms properly. I teach both, and have students who have been very effective with them in HS ball, travel ball and college. But here's what I expect.

The first curve I teach is an outside curve. It comes in just on the outside 1/3 of the plate, looking like a pretty fat pitch. As it gets close to the plate, like right before, it breaks off the plate. So it's a ball that looks like a strike until well past the decision point.

For those who master that I will also teach a back door curve, which is tougher to throw. You throw the ball at the hitter, get her to flinch or back off, and then it breaks onto the inside corner for a called strike. It is a strike that looks like a ball, and a thing of beauty when it works properly.

For the screw, it starts in the middle of the plate, then breaks in on the hitter's hands. Again, I'm looking for either a called strike (if they hitter backs off the movement) or a handle hit for a weak ground ball or a pop-up. My preference is for the pitch to travel on an upward path, but I also teach pitchers to throw it low, at the knees. Those tend to be a bit flatter but end up in a tough location to hit well. The screw seems to work particularly well for the girls who aren't overpowering. If they can sucker the hitter into thinking it's a big fat pitch down the middle, and the ball breaks in, they can handcuff the hitter -- something they can't do with speed alone.

If you use those pitches in combination you can effectively widen your plate and keep hitters off-balance. Add a change and a drop and you have a lot of ways to go after a hitter. At least until you figure out which ones work the best for you.

 

[chinamigarden]

One other point based on the original clip. Candrea said to pitch to your strengths. Then he added, if you have a drop, a rise and change what else do you need. But he knows as do many coaches, a pitcher who has a good drop or a good rise, doesn't necessarily have a the other pitch. So if a girl has a great drop a great screw and a great change. Along with a middling rise. From what I am reading, he would say forget the rise, lets go with your strengths (but too bad your rise isn't better)

 

[Rich Balswick]

I believe the main pitches should be a drop, rise, and change. (changing planes) If a batter tends to uppercut and drop the bat head, a true rise ball is generally very difficult to hit. If a batter tends to stay on top of the ball and to swing downward, a good drop is then generally the most effective pitch. Often times you can begin to determine a batter's tendencies by watching them on deck- if not, start them out with a high rise ball or a low drop ( out of the strike zone ) and watch how they react. A lot of times it helps it helps to not throw a strike until you you are aware of a batter's tendencies either by scouting reports or by what I just suggested. ( Curves and so-called screw balls (most often I see spirals ) should be chase pitches because of the tendency for them to stay flat. If the strategy doesn't work, change the strategy.