Can we talk "low" riseball

[GunnerShotgun]

This 9 year old doesn't break 50 but I swear, she gets it to rise. You can tell it's on purpose by how the catcher sets up. It's pretty crazy. We aren't doing new pitches with ours, we're perfecting what she already knows (change, fast, drop). I was just curious about it because it's the first time I've ever seen a good, intentional riseball in 10U. Given the history I'd rather not be impressed by that team but I can't help it

A riseball doesn't actually rise. As others have pointed out there is a speed threshold you must achieve to get the proper illusion. No 10 year olds are throwing a rise.

A highball is not a riseball.

 

[grcsftbll]

If it moves from low to high (not just a high fast ball, it really moves) , and gets the batter to swing and miss, but the speed is mid 40s, what pitch is that? She has great spin. I dunno. I'm pretty new to pitching and am only learning the pitches as my dd learns them so maybe it's not a rise but something else. Either way, she sure strikes out a lot of older girls.

 

[JJsqueeze]

GRC- I'm not trying to sound condescending but there are some things that pitchers parents just have to go through on their own and see for themselves. One of them is seeing a true rise for the first time. No one can describe it, the ball just doesn't act right when it is coming at you. Some say it jumps, I say it "floats up" but it is distinctly different and it simply does not exist at 10u except for maybe a couple of girls each year that are phenoms and throw 55 ish at that age.

My little one played a pretty high level of ball at 10s and I did not see a single riseball thrown all season, including PGF. I saw a lot of high fastballs that struck girls out though. Even at 12s I saw "risebally" pitches but they just weren't quite there yet. Now at 14s I am seeing true riseballs here and there and they just look different from high fastballs. Even now most of the pitches girls call risers are not true riseballs, but there are enough out there throwing it right that you can see the magic.

 

[corlay]

There are tons of pitchers out there that throw all their pitches with variations of drop ball spin, also a ton that throw all their pitches with some form of side/backspin. Train her to be able to do both and she will set herself apart from both crowds

This is TRUTH.

Train a pitcher to throw 2-3 pitches - All with correct (and different) spin axis,
and she will be very successful.

This is easier said than done!

My own DD is a "wrist cupper" naturally,
and took immediately to a corkscrew curve and now messing with a rise.

Been working on a Drop all this past Winter and it has been a struggle!
She is just now getting to where she is getting her fingers pointed downward at release and "finding the bottom" of her arm-circle for this pitch.

Firmly on the track of developing a few pitches the right way.

but DON'T jump the gun on saying the pitch is game ready. Insist that the spin is true and the location is controlled.

I disagree with this.

Throw that pitch in games, I say.
Certainly pick your spots, maybe when ahead of the count, and keep it just out of the zone if you like.
But lessons learned when throwing against live batters in a pressure situation is important.
Even when the pitch is "under construction".

 

[grcsftbll]

I believe you, JJ. I've always read the distance is too short and speed too low for a true rise in 10U. But what do you think she's throwing? Just a fast ball with a particular spin?

 

[Rocketech1]

Has worked pretty well for my DD.

Can you elaborate on her pitch strategy with the low riseball. I was watching the Texas v. Kansas game last night and I swear that Tiarra Davis (TX) throws a low riseball at times. She also has a great high riseball which is her strike out pitch.

 

[corlay]

I've always read the distance is too short and speed too low for a true rise in 10U. But what do you think she's throwing? Just a fast ball with a particular spin?

In theory, a 10U can certainly throw a Riseball. (although I've never seen one myself)
The criteria is a (mostly) backwards spinning ball.
Nothing to do with speed or distance.
BUT speed and distance certainly *enhance* the effectiveness of that pitch.
SPEED (in combination with backspin) to help the ball to resist the effects of gravity and drop a LOT less than other forward spinning pitches.
DISTANCE to elongate the gravity resisting effects and better differentiate the trajectory from forward spinning pitches.

If a 10U can throw a backwards spinning pitch with near equal velocity to her dropball,
why not throw it? If it is truly spinning correctly and differently than her drop, it WILL be effective.

 

[DNeeld]

Speed is the single greatest factor for a riseball. The way a rise "rises" is by creating an illusion based on the hitters brain processing speed. When the pitch is thrown the hitter'so brain will start doing calculations of speed, trajectory, etc. It will use snapshots of the ball's flight path and compare it to the storage record of previous pitches and make predictions of where the pitch will end up. Hitters will swear they see a consistent ball path, but really it is just the brain taking snap shots and using predictions to fill in the rest. The rise will appear to jump (and hitters will swear it jumps, much like the famous rising fastball from baseball) when the brain takes a new snapshot and realizes the ball hasn'the dropped as much as it was predicting. In other words, the ball is higher in its trajectory than the brain expected. When the brain recalcurates the new information, it adjusts the trajectory prediction. The new prediction causes the perception of the hitter to think the ball suddenly jumps up.

The faster the pitch, the fewer snapshots the brain is able to make and thus the more inaccurate the trajectory prediction will be. This is the reason a pitcher who throws 60 with limited movement on a curve or drop will be more effective than a pitcher who throws 50 with great movement on those pitches. The is also the reason many consider the rise to have a speed limit to be effective.

 

[coach james]

I believe you, JJ. I've always read the distance is too short and speed too low for a true rise in 10U. But what do you think she's throwing? Just a fast ball with a particular spin?

I believe you're most likely seeing a good high fastball. Which is effective for sure, however the ball MUST be traveling at least 55ish to fight gravity. When she gets to around 14U, you'll start seeing 55-60 mph rise balls. Those are mind blowing the first 3000 times you see them, and still hard to comprehend after 9000 times!

 

[marriard]

I believe you're most likely seeing a good high fastball. Which is effective for sure, however the ball MUST be traveling at least 55ish to fight gravity. When she gets to around 14U, you'll start seeing 55-60 mph rise balls. Those are mind blowing the first 3000 times you see them, and still hard to comprehend after 9000 times!

High fastball is correct - and that can be a really effective pitch in all ages. Even in college I see lots of pitchers who they say have a riseball really just have a high fastball. It is a really tempting pitch for batters even if it is higher than they should be swinging at.

My DD just started throwing a rise in games the last few weeks where it actually behaves as it is meant to - she is right now in the 54-55mph cruising range in games. She has always spun the ball hard so that has helped and she has been working on it for about 6 months weekly in practice and even in games to get it down.

Her strikeouts have rocketed the past few weeks since then - getting up to 1.5 K average per inning over a weekend which is unheard of for her. This is 14U-A so a lot of batters are seeing a real rise for the first time or at least don't see it regularly for the better teams and it is almost unfair. Once she gets ahead of the batter is a really, really hard pitch for the batter to lay off.