Calling Pitches Philosophy

[cuzmail]

FWIW - I can look at my DD's stats last season and tell you which catcher was behind the plate based on the number of walks.

Same here, but not necessarily walks. Just overall results.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Greenmonsters,

I meant to give an example of what I do, but see that I forgot. So here they are.

Its only 3 pages and nothing fancy, but at least it’s easy to see how well the job’s getting done.

View attachment 6756

So much is dependent upon the pitcher, but I think there is value in tracking blocks/block attempts - more so to track personalj performance and progress, but much less so when trying to compare different catchers who don't catch the same pitchers.

I've often seen coaches choose to pair their best pitcher with their worst catcher and vice versa. And then be surprised at how much more effective that pitcher is when paired with the best catcher because, as cuz and RB note, a pitcher's performance definitely can be influenced by the catcher.

FWIW, my DD had almost as many block attempts in her first 3 games last season than did your PG team in the p. 3 summary. It got better as the year progressed, but she needed a full 6 weeks to recover after the season ended!

 

[Scorekeeper]

So much is dependent upon the pitcher, but I think there is value in tracking blocks/block attempts - more so to track personalj performance and progress, but much less so when trying to compare different catchers who don't catch the same pitchers.

When I run our numbers, I only run them for our catchers against our pitchers. I can run opponents, but I wouldn’t look at them the same way.

I've often seen coaches choose to pair their best pitcher with their worst catcher and vice versa. And then be surprised at how much more effective that pitcher is when paired with the best catcher because, as cuz and RB note, a pitcher's performance definitely can be influenced by the catcher.

Now you’re showing the difference between HSBB and whatever level of SB you watch. I’ve never seen a HSBB team that changed catchers very much, unless they didn’t have one who was very good.

For 8 seasons, here’s the percentage of batters our #1 catcher was behind the plate for.

93, 78, 88, 43, 91, 96, 95, 92

That’s 5741 batters of the 6777 total that the #1 caught. The 43% year we had 2 of the 3 catchers that were also pitchers. The 78% year the #1 got injured. Other than those 2 seasons, the only time any catcher other than #1 caught, it was garbage time and no one would have noticed what went on.

Evidently, in SB there are usually 2 catchers who share duties a lot more.

FWIW, my DD had almost as many block attempts in her first 3 games last season than did your PG team in the p. 3 summary. It got better as the year progressed, but she needed a full 6 weeks to recover after the season ended!

I believe you because as you prolly figured out from looking at the other teams, our pitching staff was very seasoned and very good. But just so we’re comparing apples and oranges, I never score a block or possible block unless there are either runners on or the rules allow the batter to reach safely on a strikeout pitch that isn’t caught in the air.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Now you’re showing the difference between HSBB and whatever level of SB you watch. I’ve never seen a HSBB team that changed catchers very much, unless they didn’t have one who was very good.

For 8 seasons, here’s the percentage of batters our #1 catcher was behind the plate for.

93, 78, 88, 43, 91, 96, 95, 92

That’s 5741 batters of the 6777 total that the #1 caught. The 43% year we had 2 of the 3 catchers that were also pitchers. The 78% year the #1 got injured. Other than those 2 seasons, the only time any catcher other than #1 caught, it was garbage time and no one would have noticed what went on.

Evidently, in SB there are usually 2 catchers who share duties a lot more.

College and 18U travel ball. College is all double headers and TB usually is 3-6 games/day, so more than 1 catcher is needed.

I believe you because as you prolly figured out from looking at the other teams, our pitching staff was very seasoned and very good. But just so we’re comparing apples and oranges, I never score a block or possible block unless there are either runners on or the rules allow the batter to reach safely on a strikeout pitch that isn’t caught in the air.

That's the right approach to use for tracking IMO; however, it potentially undermines the pitcher's confidence in their catcher's ability to block when it is required (and may affect the umpire's disposition) when balls are allowed to get by in a non-jeopardy situation

 

[Scorekeeper]

College and 18U travel ball. College is all double headers and TB usually is 3-6 games/day, so more than 1 catcher is needed.

Now there’s a significant difference between the two sports! We only play about 2 twin bills a season, and even then the #1 catcher will likely catch all but a couple innings, even in the summer.

But knowing that, I’d dang sure be tracking my catchers! Only because I want to be dang sure that what my gut and eyes are telling me is true.

That's the right approach to use for tracking IMO; however, it potentially undermines the pitcher's confidence in their catcher's ability to block when it is required (and may affect the umpire's disposition) when balls are allowed to get by in a non-jeopardy situation

That may or may not be true, but I don’t generate stats worrying about whether or not they’ll make someone feel good or bad. A block is what it is, and if the pitcher doesn’t have confidence in the catcher, they need to grow up and realize it is what it is and they have to deal with it. If the umpire is bothered by balls getting by, that’s his problem. Remember, he’s usually the only one on the field getting paid, so he’d better suck it up. 

 

[Greenmonsters]

Now there’s a significant difference between the two sports! We only play about 2 twin bills a season, and even then the #1 catcher will likely catch all but a couple innings, even in the summer.

But knowing that, I’d dang sure be tracking my catchers! Only because I want to be dang sure that what my gut and eyes are telling me is true.



That may or may not be true, but I don’t generate stats worrying about whether or not they’ll make someone feel good or bad. A block is what it is, and if the pitcher doesn’t have confidence in the catcher, they need to grow up and realize it is what it is and they have to deal with it. If the umpire is bothered by balls getting by, that’s his problem. Remember, he’s usually the only one on the field getting paid, so he’d better suck it up. 

I disagree with you here. I think its just as critical that a pitcher have confidence in their catcher's ability to block a drop ball (BB equivalent would be a sinker or forkball) as they do in their ability to throw it. As far as protecting the umpire, I believe its important to make sure they don't have to worry about bailing so that they can call every strike a strike.

 

[Scorekeeper]

I disagree with you here. I think its just as critical that a pitcher have confidence in their catcher's ability to block a drop ball (BB equivalent would be a sinker or forkball) as they do in their ability to throw it. As far as protecting the umpire, I believe its important to make sure they don't have to worry about bailing so that they can call every strike a strike.

Fine. You’re sure entitled to disagree. But think about it. If a pitcher doesn’t’ have confidence in the catcher, what’s the alternative, especially considering whose fault it is if a pitch is thrown in the dirt. My son tried that on me when he was about 11 and the catcher on hid LL team wasn’t very good. My advice was simple. “Don’t throw rotten pitches in the dirt!”

 

[Greenmonsters]

Fine. You’re sure entitled to disagree. But think about it. If a pitcher doesn’t’ have confidence in the catcher, what’s the alternative, especially considering whose fault it is if a pitch is thrown in the dirt. My son tried that on me when he was about 11 and the catcher on hid LL team wasn’t very good. My advice was simple. “Don’t throw rotten pitches in the dirt!”

I agree that it is no good to complain about things out of your control, but you seem to be overlooking the fact that we have crappy catchers because most coaches don't know how or bother to train them properly. Why not focus on that and work to fix the problem?

I guess we've now identified 2 other ways BB and SB differ. First, unlike baseball, not every player on the roster is capable of pitching (or even throwing the ball near the plate) in SB. Secondly, a drop ball is probably neck and neck with the rise as being the most effective pitch in FP and they often need to end up in the dirt, which means that a drop ball pitcher with a poor blocking catcher quickly turns into a field player or bench warmer!

 

[Greenmonsters]

Scorekeeper - wanted to direct your attention to this thread in the catching forum http://www.discussfastpitch.com/sof...guring-your-catchers-fielding-percentage.html that Chaz started re catcher's fielding percentage and try to generate discussion re the best ways to characterize a catcher's defensive abilities/performance. I think your tracking and recording blocks fits into that discussion. IMO, if we routinely recorded blocks/block attempts and collectively considered that with SB/SB attempts, pick offs, PB, total PB+WP, and FP (without including Ks i.e., maybe FP - FP w/o Ks) that would prove more useful than FP alone. You've got some good data sets, any thoughts on how to use them to come up with something of value?

 

[Scorekeeper]

I agree that it is no good to complain about things out of your control, but you seem to be overlooking the fact that we have crappy catchers because most coaches don't know how or bother to train them properly. Why not focus on that and work to fix the problem?

One of the most important and least understood reasons stats can be of use to coaches, is to identify weak areas that need works. In a TEAM environment, there just isn’t a lot of time spent on individuals. Fielders are generally all taught the same fundamentals, as are pitchers, hitters, and even base runners. Typically, there are 2-3 hours of practice a few times a week, so by the time the “team” things are practiced, like bunt coverages, relays, BP, taking standard OF and IF, and the like, there might be a hour left. If there are only 12 players on the team, each player would only get 5 lousy minutes per practice, so how much individual work is gonna get done.

At least if the coaches identify the players who are performing far below or above average for the team, they can work on the poor performers more, and not waste time on the good performers. You can only do so much, so you need to be as efficient as possible.

I guess we've now identified 2 other ways BB and SB differ. First, unlike baseball, not every player on the roster is capable of pitching (or even throwing the ball near the plate) in SB. Secondly, a drop ball is probably neck and neck with the rise as being the most effective pitch in FP and they often need to end up in the dirt, which means that a drop ball pitcher with a poor blocking catcher quickly turns into a field player or bench warmer!

I don’t know about SB, but in BB the prevailing philosophy is to teach the P’s how to throw hard, and teach them control later on. Unfortunately, P’s who learn control early on in their careers but can’t throw a strawberry through the side of a battleship, fall out of favor quickly if someone shows up who throws harder, even if they walk batters and throw the ball all over the place. It’s sad, but that’s what happens. 