Buying into Peel vs Roll Over

[sluggers]

The peel drop has the fingertips directly under the wrist (fingertips at 6pm and the wrist at 12) The roll-over drop has the fingertips more towards 3pm from the wrist. Right?

No. Everything is lined up the same at release. The hand and fingertips are rotating at release. When I get some time, I'll try to dig up the shots of my DD's hand when throwing the drop. (That is what I really like about this board. Someone challenged me, and I checked it out so I shot a video to prove he was wrong. I thought that the release would be different. *MY DD* thought the release was different. We were wrong.)

The spin comes from rotation of the hand at release. Kind of like spinning a dreidel.

I have caught and have seen loads of pitchers around the country and I will submit that at full speed the roll-over will produce a stronger break. This is only based on what I have seen.....

I totally agree with you. A full roll-over by an experienced pitcher will produce a tremendous break and with little loss of speed. It is not an easy pitch to master. There is no question that my DD had mastered the pitch, and also that my DD has some shoulder problems due to throwing the pitch.

I haven't seen a girl with a "pure" peel get much break on the ball. (I have seen the "drop change" where the pitch is a changeup and the pitcher puts spin on the ball and gets something that looks like a great deal of break.)

Wildcat: I doubt your PC is going to agree, but your DD really doesn't have to go "all in" on the rollover. There is middle ground. Look at the Scarborough drop video. She is clearly putting spin on the ball through IR, but she isn't putting enormous stress on her shoulder.

 

[RubberBiscuit]

No. Everything is lined up the same at release. The hand and fingertips are rotating at release. When I get some time, I'll try to dig up the shots of my DD's hand when throwing the drop. (That is what I really like about this board. Someone challenged me, and I checked it out so I shot a video to prove he was wrong. I thought that the release would be different. *MY DD* thought the release was different. We were wrong.)

The spin comes from rotation of the hand at release. Kind of like spinning a dreidel.

I am really looking forward to this.

Cuz I will ask DD but I think she even holds the ball differently, in reference to seam pressure, between her roll-over versus her off-speed peel.

(how I remember it = rollover uses a seam edge for one finger parallel to it and peel uses many fingertips perpendicular on one seam)

I will digress until I can chat with DD after practice tonight.

 

[FrozenRope]

How MANY YEAR HAVE YOU BEEN DOING IT. IF YOU THROW IT OUT THERE, BE READY TO BACK IT UP TOO. Hillhouse doesn't change his mech to throw a peel drop and doesn't use a hello elbow to do it, nor does he teach it. Osterman doesnt hello elbow her peel drop. So how many years have you been doing this?

About 10 years, but that doesn't mean that anyone knows all. We all learn something new every once in a while. Remember the world was flat at one time I learn something new all the time. I have lived near where Bill lives for ever and found out about him, later then I wished I have. That was only about 6 years ago, but didn't get my dd out to him only a couple of years ago. But I knew that something was wrong about what they were teaching about 7 years ago. 7 years to long with out guidance.

Nanotech, It's awesome that your DD has had great success with Bill. Hopefully we'll see her in the WCWS some day. Have to be brutally honest though, your absolute reference on so many occasions that the Hillhouse way is the only way gets old after a while, especially when you start suggesting the board be moderated in a manner that "Flags" the non-Bill way of thinking. I myself have read and like much of what bill teaches, but I would never suggest it as law and discount other credible opinions. Forgive me if I'm being harsh. Maybe I've been spending too much time reading board posts since my dd's arm is in a cast and I can't sit on the bucket.

 

[Westwind]

Sluggers, what makes you think that the rollover was responsible for your dd's shoulder pain?

I ask because I have heard before that the rollover should not be taught to younger kids. I am also learning that in softball, just because somebody says it with conviction, that doesn't always make it so.

I may be misunderstanding what you wrote but if the rollover and peel are similar at release but have different finish, I don't understand why it has a greater potential for injury.

DD is 10u and is currently getting by nicely with fastball and change but in practice we are working on movement pitches in preparation for the future. She took very nicely to the rollover and the peel isn't clicking for her. I'm not currently nervous about her playing with a rollover but if there is reason to worry about it I guess I'd like to know. Thanks, ww.

 

[RubberBiscuit]

but I would never suggest it as law and discount other credible opinions.

You get my vote today FR for the "provider of the breath of fresh air award"!!!

Amen my brother/sister whomever you are!

There is so much "group-think" with so many members here it does get quite nauseating after a while.

"Oh that Xeno is the hottest bat for sure..."
"Oh this guy named Bill walks on water...."
"Oh if your glove arm ever gets off line you will die..."
"Oh if you do this pitch this way or that way the world will end..."
"Oh our politicians have our best interests at heart and will lead us away from harm"

Just like anything in this world peeps, everything you see should be heavily questioned. THINK CRITICALLY ON YOUR OWN on everything and make your own decisions!! So many things that are popular group-think are sooooooooo wrong!

I will be maybe the first to admit to buying Hal's "book" many moons ago. Am I embarrassed,... no. I LOVE to read peoples opinions on life and in the end I add it all up and determine what does and what doesn't make sense ON MY OWN.

(OK - off my soap box for now )

 

[Perfect Circle]

Nanotech, It's awesome that your DD has had great success with Bill. Hopefully we'll see her in the WCWS some day. Have to be brutally honest though, your absolute reference on so many occasions that the Hillhouse way is the only way gets old after a while, especially when you start suggesting the board be moderated in a manner that "Flags" the non-Bill way of thinking. I myself have read and like much of what bill teaches, but I would never suggest it as law and discount other credible opinions. Forgive me if I'm being harsh. Maybe I've been spending too much time reading board posts since my dd's arm is in a cast and I can't sit on the bucket.

I think you must be reading the post while setting on the throne. Not sure your going to get it anyhow, if your still talking a bucket, after I showed you how to set lower on the chair. This toxic crap ain't cutting it with me. Most on here are helpful... you had your chance to contribute when the issue of cameras came up. I'm "still" waiting to see some high speed footage from that camera of yours... but you passed. Sorry about your DD. :{((

Nano I appreciate your honesty, about your delayed response, and not starting earlier. I seen a cousins kid and my stepson...get real close in BaseBall, but as it turned out, their technique was detrimental to the long term health. I had no choice but to seek out the BEST!!! DD's Mom will kill me...not JK! Her big regret with her son, is we enabled it. We let him sleep in... ect... all & every trick in the book, when it was obvious it was hurting him everyday, every practice. He was a big Boy & tough....once he got the big needle, she said no more, after 13 yrs on the lawn chair, she cut the funds from the college coach.... Then comes DD....

The main thing about the 3 GREATEST (IMHO) that get mentioned on here... if someone would personally seek them out is... safety first!!! The division starts with the marketed phrase from the Fastpitch world... "Throw like a girl" Once you figure out that your DD can take it to the boyz... and or you realize that she is far past the other boys you watched at her age..( for me a whole team ) They all get wide eyed when they see the little girl that was at all their games, in a stroller...then throwing sand...and then 8 yrs later running out on the field getting to front row and snapping the pic that's still in the Coaches Office of the Championship game. They all know they can't touch her...not even her big Brother!!! at this age. So I'm not hip to the girl talk. She don't throw like a girl, or catch/pitch like one and I'm going after the MLB swing too!!! Who can talk to me??? Friends on here warn me, that I'll ruin it for DD in fastpitch. Maybe... but her nephew same age, when he tries out for pitcher this year will be bringing his own catcher...as soon as he can handle catching her throw backs... she will be a pick-up player for their team...I'll need to limit some of the singing around the campfire...

If you are still with me... another point that the Big 3 have in common is personal interaction. The Books...Sites, DVD's, video's, and newsletters & sticky's are just for the common good of the game. Just a contribution. Once you get with them and witness the magic, and they hone in on your unique attributes, it becomes private e-mails !!! They can REALLY access the video's you send them...You'll find your self very challenged just getting the shots, form some angles you never would have thought of...

Greenmonsters said it best when he simply stated... Teaching is a ART!!! Most teach rote...I am opened minded, and still waiting for my requirements in a PC to come along ... I want someone with a phd in astrophysics. I know one who leveled the field with our theology questions... I believe she can fly....she can sing like angel :{)) Anyone want in my group?

If you never heard one before... listen to this story form "the Artist" the words to the song, and what he thinks an Angel would sound like: Point being... when you get to a live concert, after you have listened to the cd over and over, "the Artist" will tell you, and show, more than you'll ever be able to comprehend !!!

MERLE HAGGARD AND JEWEL - THAT'S THE WAY LOVE GOES - YouTube

 

[RubberBiscuit]

I am really looking forward to this.

Cuz I will ask DD but I think she even holds the ball differently, in reference to seam pressure, between her roll-over versus her off-speed peel.

(how I remember it = rollover uses a seam edge for one finger parallel to it and peel uses many fingertips perpendicular on one seam)

I will digress until I can chat with DD after practice tonight.

So i got with DD finally. Just like i thought for her. The fingertips are at 6pm on Peel and 3pm on the Rollover. I suggested to DD that they might be the same and i think she is still laughing at me now.

 

[FrozenRope]

I think you must be reading the post while setting on the throne. Not sure your going to get it anyhow, if your still talking a bucket, after I showed you how to set lower on the chair. This toxic crap ain't cutting it with me. Most on here are helpful... you had your chance to contribute when the issue of cameras came up. I'm "still" waiting to see some high speed footage from that camera of yours... but you passed. Sorry about your DD. :{((

Nano I appreciate your honesty, about your delayed response, and not starting earlier. I seen a cousins kid and my stepson...get real close in BaseBall, but as it turned out, their technique was detrimental to the long term health. I had no choice but to seek out the BEST!!! DD's Mom will kill me...not JK! Her big regret with her son, is we enabled it. We let him sleep in... ect... all & every trick in the book, when it was obvious it was hurting him everyday, every practice. He was a big Boy & tough....once he got the big needle, she said no more, after 13 yrs on the lawn chair, she cut the funds from the college coach.... Then comes DD....

The main thing about the 3 GREATEST (IMHO) that get mentioned on here... if someone would personally seek them out is... safety first!!! The division starts with the marketed phrase from the Fastpitch world... "Throw like a girl" Once you figure out that your DD can take it to the boyz... and or you realize that she is far past the other boys you watched at her age..( for me a whole team ) They all get wide eyed when they see the little girl that was at all their games, in a stroller...then throwing sand...and then 8 yrs later running out on the field getting to front row and snapping the pic that's still in the Coaches Office of the Championship game. They all know they can't touch her...not even her big Brother!!! at this age. So I'm not hip to the girl talk. She don't throw like a girl, or catch/pitch like one and I'm going after the MLB swing too!!! Who can talk to me??? Friends on here warn me, that I'll ruin it for DD in fastpitch. Maybe... but her nephew same age, when he tries out for pitcher this year will be bringing his own catcher...as soon as he can handle catching her throw backs... she will be a pick-up player for their team...I'll need to limit some of the singing around the campfire...

If you are still with me... another point that the Big 3 have in common is personal interaction. The Books...Sites, DVD's, video's, and newsletters & sticky's are just for the common good of the game. Just a contribution. Once you get with them and witness the magic, and they hone in on your unique attributes, it becomes private e-mails !!! They can REALLY access the video's you send them...You'll find your self very challenged just getting the shots, form some angles you never would have thought of...

Greenmonsters said it best when he simply stated... Teaching is a ART!!! Most teach rote...I am opened minded, and still waiting for my requirements in a PC to come along ... I want someone with a phd in astrophysics. I know one who leveled the field with our theology questions... I believe she can fly....she can sing like angel :{)) Anyone want in my group?

If you never heard one before... listen to this story form "the Artist" the words to the song, and what he thinks an Angel would sound like: Point being... when you get to a live concert, after you have listened to the cd over and over, "the Artist" will tell you, and show, more than you'll ever be able to comprehend !!!

MERLE HAGGARD AND JEWEL - THAT'S THE WAY LOVE GOES - YouTube

First off, let me apologize to the Original Poster, The Board and The Moderators for what follows, as it has absolutely NOTHING to do with softball pitching, let alone the differences between a roll over and a peel drop. Perfect Circle, let's start off that the High Speed Camera you're so excited to hear about is nothing more than a $70 Kodak mini cam that happens to record a grainy 120 FPS at 480dpi as I disclosed when speaking of it. Sorry if you were holding your breath waiting for a demo because you missed the big ribbon cutting ceremony. Here it was, hope it's all you had dreamed about. My Vids in THIS post were recorded with my Kodak Super Cam.
Oh, and my DD thanks you for your concerns about her broken arm. The pink chair broke, so now I sit on a 3 gallon bucket. I'll go garage sale hunting for a new fisher price chair in the spring.

Now, as for this reply....you should have stuck to roasting me....would have been better off. Instead, as usual, you went off into Space and lost me, as well as anyone else that read your reply that wasn't under the influence of hallucinogenic substances. You ended up stoned at a Merle Haggard concert as far as I can tell.

Now, as for the value of my "potty post", I think it's important to get it out there that there's more than one opinion in the world. Anyone that references "absolutes" in what you refer to as an Art, needs to be corrected. We wouldn't want to sway the readers on this forum to believe that there is only one way to skin a cat. That was the intent of my post.

 

[RubberBiscuit]

.... Anyone that references "absolutes" in what you refer to as an Art, needs to be corrected.

This is the new "best statement of the day". Thanks for this gem in the midst of yer defense

 

[Perfect Circle]

This is the new "best statement of the day". Thanks for this gem in the midst of yer defense

I'll stand corrected.... but when you pick up a camera, you blast off into the Art World. The kinda cameras we need for Fastpitch, hitting and Pitching...get shot off into space.Thats why I'm a cadet :{)) absolutely !!!