1st and 3rd situation question

[MTR]

The problems occur when the umpire see it different than the base runners (and or coaches). Since the umpires have the final say we end up parsing the LBR rule trying to determine everyone's intent.

The problem with MTR's solution is lazy umpires that will kill the play too soon. While this could be the perfect solution I don't have a lot of faith in the majority of umpires to get this right.

Yet umpires do it thousands of times a day in the SP game with no, zip, zero, nil arguments and the games are over in usually an hour or less, many going a full seven innings with that many more hits and runs. It really isn't that difficult and the umpire would use the same mechanic s/he would in enforcing the LBR. Check that a fielder (not necessarily th pitcher) has possession of the ball in the infield area, check the runner and if all obvious play is done, you kill the ball and everyone moves to set for the next pitch. It is not even nearly as difficult or carries the effect on the game that many here fears. The only people who would have a problem would be those who think they are Earl Weaver/Billy Martin/Tommy LaSorda and want to play the cat and mouse game which was the target of the enactment of LBR.

There is no argument that some umpires are lazy, but isn't that the same argument often used for the umpires not enforcing the LBR? I believe the larger issue would be an adjustment period for the umpire to remember to call time.

If it does slow the game down at all, it's more at the younger rec levels where the players are more inexperienced at both base running and the defense making plays on the base runners. In travel ball the past two years in 12u and 14u I can't remember a single circle violation or a coach arguing if their should have been one. The games move pretty quickly with regards to the LBR and base running, leadoffs, pickoff plays, steals. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

It wasn't broken before yet the rule came into existence. IMO, it isn't a matter of fixing something, but of bringing the game back into focus of playing it instead of playing with it.

 

[kenny 77]

Well, not to change the subject or anything but MTR kind of took us in this direction. The reason SP games move along faster than FB games is not because of the LB rule. It’s because there are less walks, less strikeouts, less timeouts, fewer pitches being thrown as most hits come on the first pitch to a batter, etc. etc. Do I need to go farther?

The Look Back rule is good and nothing should be changed with it. Honestly, outside of 10U, how many times a game does a pitcher raise the ball towards a runner standing off the base and that runner just stands there verses going back to the base? Very few because in the older age divisions they’ll get thrown out if they do. 99.9% of the time, the runners round the base, pause then go back to the base and then we move on to the next pitch. Doesn’t delay the game at all and there is very rarely a “cat and mouse” game being played.

Like an umpire told me one time, “once the runner rounds the base and the pitcher doesn’t make a move towards them, we start our count, one thousand one, one thousand OUT”.

 

[MTR]

Well, not to change the subject or anything but MTR kind of took us in this direction. The reason SP games move along faster than FB games is not because of the LB rule. It’s because there are less walks, less strikeouts, less timeouts, fewer pitches being thrown as most hits come on the first pitch to a batter, etc. etc. Do I need to go farther?

Sure, lets not forget all the huddles, rah-rah, wasted time between innings and overcoaching including some high-level CS arguments over obvious rulings because the coach hasn't a clue about some rules or just thinks that arguing is part of the coaching game. In lieu of fewer strikeouts and walks (which number isn't as different as you probably believe), there are that many more hits and runs. No, the LBR is not the sole reason the FP game runs longer, but it does unnecessarily contribute to it.

The Look Back rule is good and nothing should be changed with it. Honestly, outside of 10U, how many times a game does a pitcher raise the ball towards a runner standing off the base and that runner just stands there verses going back to the base? Very few because in the older age divisions they’ll get thrown out if they do. 99.9% of the time, the runners round the base, pause then go back to the base and then we move on to the next pitch. Doesn’t delay the game at all and there is very rarely a “cat and mouse” game being played.

The delay is the repositioning of the umpires. With runners on base, it should not be simultaneous as long as the ball is live as at least one umpire must remain observant of the pitcher and all runners while the other moves to the next position. In 2007, ASA instructed their umpires when rotated in a 3-umpire crew to call time to allow the umpires to hustle to their next position. See http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Softball/News/2007/June/30/June-2007-Rule-Clarifications-and-Plays

Like an umpire told me one time, “once the runner rounds the base and the pitcher doesn’t make a move towards them, we start our count, one thousand one, one thousand OUT”.

And that umpire is incorrect. Any count or consideration shouldn't start until the runner comes to a stop whether one, three or five steps after rounding the base and then, IMO, it should be "one thousand one, one thousand, "TIME" ." The LBR was never meant to become a tool, strategy or the cause of a cheap out. It's purpose was to keep the game moving and eliminate the cat and mouse game. Well, calling time does the same job with no negative ramifications for either team.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

Any count or consideration shouldn't start until the runner comes to a stop whether one, three or five steps after rounding the base and then, IMO, it should be "one thousand one, one thousand, "TIME" ." The LBR was never meant to become a tool, strategy or the cause of a cheap out. It's purpose was to keep the game moving and eliminate the cat and mouse game. Well, calling time does the same job with no negative ramifications for either team.

Best articulated argument against LBR.

 

[JAD]

Are there lookback rules in youth levels of baseball? I never really understood why the rule is there at all. Defense/pitchers should be able to "take care of" baserunners without needing some unevenly-enforced rule....

Baseball does not have a look back rule since base runners are allowed to lead off the base before the pitch.

 

[PlayPerfect]

Leadoff could hit a single, round first and NEVER allow the pitcher to get back on the mound by cat and mousing back and forth for the two hour time limit.

 

[Il softball fan]

Leadoff could hit a single, round first and NEVER allow the pitcher to get back on the mound by cat and mousing back and forth for the two hour time limit.

Are you talking baseball? Never seen a mound, nor a two hour time limit.

I can see MTR's point about blue killing the play, and I also say leave it the way it is. The girls, for the most part, know the rules and it goes smoothly the way it is. DD is playing first year 16U this year, and I can really only remember the LBR out being called in her games a couple of times over the last 6 years. The runners know, once the ball gets back to the circle, get back to a base, and play is over.

 

[MTR]

Are you talking baseball? Never seen a mound, nor a two hour time limit.

I can see MTR's point about blue killing the play, and I also say leave it the way it is. The girls, for the most part, know the rules and it goes smoothly the way it is. DD is playing first year 16U this year, and I can really only remember the LBR out being called in her games a couple of times over the last 6 years. The runners know, once the ball gets back to the circle, get back to a base, and play is over.

Problem isn't the runners, it is the coaches' who try to make it a strategic event, or start screaming about a perceived violation. In my scenario, a runner never gets called out.

 

[PlayPerfect]

Good catch on my use of the word "mound"....I was only stating why the LBR is critical to softball. I took the situation of cat and mouse to an extreme. LBR was put in place so the kids wouldn't sign up for lacrosse and soccer the following year.

 

[MTR]

Good catch on my use of the word "mound"....I was only stating why the LBR is critical to softball. I took the situation of cat and mouse to an extreme. LBR was put in place so the kids wouldn't sign up for lacrosse and soccer the following year.

I doubt that since most players couldn't tell you what the an LBR is