Turnover Drop

Clearly...not a peel.

Here is a series of pictures showing the movement of the forearm...but, I think you get the picture.

By the time they have pitched for 5 years with a 4-seam fastball (precursor to the peel drop)

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Completely wrong...a 4 seam fastball is *NOT* a drop and is not a "precursor" to the drop. I know everyone wishes it were...it would make teaching pitching so much simpler.

With due respect, few people understand the precision required to use a drop or rise in college. It isn't enough to simply throw the ball and have it drop. A pitcher has to consistently fool D1 batters...and they are not easily fooled.

sluggers said:

[Completely wrong...a 4 seam fastball is *NOT* a drop and is not a "precursor" to the drop. I know everyone wishes it were...it would make teaching pitching so much simpler.

With due respect, few people understand the precision required to use a drop or rise in college. It isn't enough to simply throw the ball and have it drop. A pitcher has to consistently fool D1 batters...and they are not easily fooled.

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I guess it depends on your definition of a drop ball. For example, my DD has been throwing a 4-seam fastball since she was 7yo. She is now 12yo and uses the same exact grip on her drop ball as her 4-seam fastball. The only real difference in her mechanics is the release angle, she shortens her stride a little bit and keeps the ball low in the zone. Her RPS averages 20 per RevFire and is mid 50s in speed. This pitch is definitely a drop ball with 12-6 spin and good downward movement. Does it drop as much as a pitcher with 28rps and throwing 65, heck no but she is only 12.

The point is if you can throw a 12-6 pitch with high RPS, with good velocity, at the correct release angle you will get the ball to drop. Not sure why this is such a hard concept to understand?

By the way, just watched Cat pitch and she was throwing a lot of back door curves. You sure the above pitch isn't a drop curve?

I'm glad your DD is doing well. Throwing 55 MPH with 20RPS is pretty good. And, like you said, she is just 12YOA. She'll be great.

The point is if you can throw a 12-6 pitch with high RPS, with good velocity, at the correct release angle you will get the ball to drop. Not sure why this is such a hard concept to understand?

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You conflating two different concepts.

Concept I: What are the physics behind ball flight?
Concept II: What makes an effective drop ball when pitching?

Throwing a ball which drops is simply a matter of getting the correct spin orientation and putting some spin on the ball.

Throwing an effective drop ball--being able to locate the pitch in and around the strike zone at will while disguising that the ball has more spin than a "normal" fastball--is something quite different.

You sure the above pitch isn't a drop curve?

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The drop curve and the "straight" drop are the same pitch. They are both "turnover" drops (I hate the term turnover and I hate the term peel. Neither are helpful). The difference between the two pitches is the amount of "looseness" in the arm.

In order to throw a drop curve, the pitcher allows the wrist to come forward more. In order to throw a straight drop, the pitcher keeps the wrist closer to the body.

If a pitcher pays attention when learning the turnover drop, she will learn both pitches.

she was throwing a lot of back door curves.

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People say "back door curve" like it means something and everyone nods.

Couple pennies...

A ball that travels fast... is a fast ball.

The trajectory (vertical angle of release), speed, then spin... determine the flight path of a thrown fastpitch softball... in that order.

Given that... I'm like 99.99% sure that a 55 mph/20 rps 12-6 pitch will drop more than a 65 mph/28 rps 12-6... when all other things are equal.

If the finger(s) are to impart 12-6 spin on a ball pitched legally underhand (fastpitch)... the last ones to touch the ball MUST work UP the BACK of the ball. Not over the top...not up the bottom... UP THE BACK.

IF THE PITCHER understands and utilizes the best best trajectory angle (posture) for her speed and spin... that ball will drop just fine... and she can then focus her attention towards building her spin rate.

You can finish anyway you'd like... cause the ball is long gone. You can append whatever prefix you want to the pitch, it's a drop... and it ain't impossible to throw.

javasource said:

Couple pennies...

A ball that travels fast... is a fast ball.

The trajectory (vertical angle of release), speed, then spin... determine the flight path of a thrown fastpitch softball... in that order.

Given that... I'm like 99.99% sure that a 55 mph/20 rps 12-6 pitch will drop more than a 65 mph/28 rps 12-6... when all other things are equal.

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Maybe but we would also need to factor in batters reaction time and the fact that the 55mph pitcher will have to start the pitch at a slightly higher trajectory to reach the exact same spot as the 65mph to ultimately determine the effectiveness of the drop ball. At the end of the day, the 55mph pitcher with only 20rps will get rocked in top D1, where the 65mph, 28rps pitcher will have an effective drop ball. I know which pitcher I would want on my team.

Rocketech1 said:

Maybe but we would also need to factor in batters reaction time and the fact that the 55mph pitcher will have to start the pitch at a slightly higher trajectory to reach the exact same spot as the 65mph to ultimately determine the effectiveness of the drop ball. At the end of the day, the 55mph pitcher with only 20rps will get rocked in top D1, where the 65mph, 28rps pitcher will have an effective drop ball. I know which pitcher I would want on my team.

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Aside from these 2 dozen or so pitchers having these attributes most fall into the former category and more reflect the norm.

Given that... I'm like 99.99% sure that a 55 mph/20 rps 12-6 pitch will drop more than a 65 mph/28 rps 12-6... when all other things are equal.

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You write that like it means somthing...but it doesn't. (It is a physics question.)

If this were an important factor, slow pitch would be impossible for the batters. The amount of drop is so great on one of those pitches that it is impossible for the batter to hit the ball.

But, it doesn't work that way...slow pitch batters rarely miss. Why? Because the batters have a great deal of time to react to the pitch.

The factors for pitching to good hitters:

1) When does the batter recognize the pitch as a movement pitch
2) How much of a change does the batter have to make in order to hit the ball.

The trajectory (vertical angle of release), speed, then spin... determine the flight path of a thrown fastpitch softball... in that order.

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That makes no sense at all.

The flight path of a ball is determined by all three. If you change one of those, the flight path changes. One is not more important than the other.

You can finish anyway you'd like... cause the ball is long gone.

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No, you cannot. A follow through is dictated by the movement of the arm before release.

Follow throughs are the result of motion *before* release. After release, the arm should be relaxed. So, the arm is going to move along a path which was set by how the arm was moving before release. This is basic physics--"a body in motion continues in motion as long as no outside force interacts with it."

Take a look at Cat...her hand and forearm continue to rotate after release is because it was rotating *before* release.

sluggers said:

Clearly...not a peel.

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The action here is that of a peel.

sluggers said:

The trajectory (vertical angle of release), speed, then spin... determine the flight path of a thrown fastpitch softball... in that order.

Click to expand...

That makes no sense at all.

The flight path of a ball is determined by all three. If you change one of those, the flight path changes. One is not more important than the other.

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Javasource is 100% correct. That was the message the good Dr. left us with when he visited us here at DFP.

Am I the only person geeking out because I saw the Rick Pauly liked a post on this thread!!! HE'S BACK!!!