finally got a rev fire

I have a question for those that have more experience with the rev fire. Have you noticed any patterns between spin and speed. Meaning as spin rate drops speed goes up? I ask because I measured another pitcher and she is 2-3 mph faster than DD but spins are 10-11 vs 16-18. I know she was trained with a lot of wrist flips and DD has never used this drill. I then thought about how tight Cat spins but how she throws low 60s and it made perfect sense that of you are taking some energy and putting it into rotational energy then you must be taking it from velocity. So I had the idea that maybe this tool can be used in reverse to try to actually train a true fastball. Leave it to me to be the first rev fire user to think that using it to reduce spin might be the first step.

I have had a RevFire for years and have noticed a loose correlation between speed and spin. There is a happy medium between the two and some pitchers have found that backing off a bit provides them with the optimal balance of speed, spin, and control.

A spin rate of 16-18rps is decent for a younger pitcher. But a spin rate of 10-11rsp is very slow and definitely cause for concern. Backing off the speed is not going to get a 10-11 RPS pitcher to 16-18RPS. My DD throws very hard with a 30RPS spin rate on her pitches. But she can hold the ball in front of her and spin it in the high 20's with ease. She then picks up a few more RPS when throwing full speed. Having the pitcher do an isolated spin can often provide insight into what needs to be worked on. They may need to get some "toys" to use to increase their spin.

along those lines-does anyone have any data on relationships between speed and spin as a pitcher grows and progresses? DD is 11 and throws mid 40s with the 16-18 spin on a drop. Mechanically speaking I am assuming that whatever is happening on her release give X amount of energy to forward speed and Y to spin. Does this mean as she grows and gets stronger that I can expect her to naturally progress so that as long as everything stays the same release wise, then as her speed increases due to getting taller and stronger that her spin will probably increase as well? So when she is 16 and presumably throwing say 55-60, then her spins will come along for the ride and be low 20s? Just looking for some read signs/benchmarks to see if people's experience is that the spin and speed rise together as a pitcher grows.

Question for the experts. Pitching coach gave my DD speed readings of 56 to 59 mph at 43 feet seems to me she was was set up about a foot too close to home plate any ideas about how fast that would actually be?

JJ
Lots of variables relative to spin rate increases.
Length of fingers, grip strength, finger grip on the ball, brush interference/energy transfer/ etc. etc.
With the possible exception of stretching her fingers.... the others will come with time, maturity, and focused practice.

We do a drill called "Dead Stop". Let's use the riseball for example. The pitcher throws from the K position....brings the arm down with high energy....definitely gets brush interference.....attempts to stop the arm/wrist "dead" at time of brush interference.....thus transferring all the energy into the fingers in the form of spin......speed is not the focus.....spin is the focus.
With just about every pitching student we do this with they achieve a significantly higher spin rate. Then we have them perform the same "Dead Stop" action from the full pitching motion. Again, you will see an increase in spin rates. Eventually, you will see these increased spin rates when the pitcher is throwing at game speed. Spin rates can definitely be increased with focused drills......strength work relative to grip strength can certainly speed up the process.

JJsqueeze said:

along those lines-does anyone have any data on relationships between speed and spin as a pitcher grows and progresses? DD is 11 and throws mid 40s with the 16-18 spin on a drop. Mechanically speaking I am assuming that whatever is happening on her release give X amount of energy to forward speed and Y to spin. Does this mean as she grows and gets stronger that I can expect her to naturally progress so that as long as everything stays the same release wise, then as her speed increases due to getting taller and stronger that her spin will probably increase as well? So when she is 16 and presumably throwing say 55-60, then her spins will come along for the ride and be low 20s? Just looking for some read signs/benchmarks to see if people's experience is that the spin and speed rise together as a pitcher grows.

Click to expand...

Rick Pauly said:

JJ
Lots of variables relative to spin rate increases.
Length of fingers, grip strength, finger grip on the ball, brush interference/energy transfer/ etc. etc.
With the possible exception of stretching her fingers.... the others will come with time, maturity, and focused practice.

We do a drill called "Dead Stop". Let's use the riseball for example. The pitcher throws from the K position....brings the arm down with high energy....definitely gets brush interference.....attempts to stop the arm/wrist "dead" at time of brush interference.....thus transferring all the energy into the fingers in the form of spin......speed is not the focus.....spin is the focus.
With just about every pitching student we do this with they achieve a significantly higher spin rate. Then we have them perform the same "Dead Stop" action from the full pitching motion. Again, you will see an increase in spin rates. Eventually, you will see these increased spin rates when the pitcher is throwing at game speed. Spin rates can definitely be increased with focused drills......strength work relative to grip strength can certainly speed up the process.

Click to expand...

Good share. I call them finger snaps (not to be confused with wrist snaps)... and they really help improve their release mechanics. Over time, you'll notice a much better whip, better spin, consistent release mechanics (accuracy), and a much better... or resultant brush (really difficult to decel without contact). Furthermore, you can do these into the glove when you are without a catcher. Strengthening up the forearm goes a long way. The gyro ball and wrist rolls are handy exercises, too.

JJ Hammer said:

Question for the experts. Pitching coach gave my DD speed readings of 56 to 59 mph at 43 feet seems to me she was was set up about a foot too close to home plate any ideas about how fast that would actually be?

Click to expand...

I assume you're talking about readings from a Rev Fire? The Rev Fire is not a great tool for getting actual max gun speed. There is no universal formula to translate to MGS, because it all depends on where your DD actually releases the ball i.e., 4 feet from the rubbber...5 feet, 6 feet etc. It also depends on if the catcher reached out to catch the ball, or reached to the side. It measures from the beginning of the rotation to the point it stops. It's a decent guage for comparison purposes....but the actual gun speed may vary significantly.

Rick and JS,

we are going to work on this next week, thanks. I think I have a natural dropballer on my hands. After reading some stats from rev fire, taking some measurements and running some calcs on the good Dr Nathan's simulator, It occurred to me that DD is a natural drop baller. we spent the last two practices just trying to dial in a high spin pitch at the knees. I am writing this from a friendly and DD has thrown 6 innings with 2 hits and about 500 weak grounders. She even cam in to relive the #1 in the 4th inning to protect a 4-3 lead with the bases loaded.......she closed it out with a few grounders to win the game.

Rick Pauly said:

JJ
Lots of variables relative to spin rate increases.
Length of fingers, grip strength, finger grip on the ball, brush interference/energy transfer/ etc. etc.
With the possible exception of stretching her fingers.... the others will come with time, maturity, and focused practice.

We do a drill called "Dead Stop". Let's use the riseball for example. The pitcher throws from the K position....brings the arm down with high energy....definitely gets brush interference.....attempts to stop the arm/wrist "dead" at time of brush interference.....thus transferring all the energy into the fingers in the form of spin......speed is not the focus.....spin is the focus.
With just about every pitching student we do this with they achieve a significantly higher spin rate. Then we have them perform the same "Dead Stop" action from the full pitching motion. Again, you will see an increase in spin rates. Eventually, you will see these increased spin rates when the pitcher is throwing at game speed. Spin rates can definitely be increased with focused drills......strength work relative to grip strength can certainly speed up the process.

Click to expand...

Love this one. Even better is the look in the eyes of the parents and kids when they first try it!

JJsqueeze said:

Rick and JS,

we are going to work on this next week, thanks. I think I have a natural dropballer on my hands. After reading some stats from rev fire, taking some measurements and running some calcs on the good Dr Nathan's simulator, It occurred to me that DD is a natural drop baller. we spent the last two practices just trying to dial in a high spin pitch at the knees. I am writing this from a friendly and DD has thrown 6 innings with 2 hits and about 500 weak grounders. She even cam in to relive the #1 in the 4th inning to protect a 4-3 lead with the bases loaded.......she closed it out with a few grounders to win the game.

Click to expand...

Be careful JJ...If she is throwing a peel, one thing that you may encourage with the extensive focus on the rotation is early "behind the ball" and that could "leak" into her pitching mechanics .... unless she is solid on the pinky leads, IR release we all covet. If you ask me, this is where the roll over drop was born. Maintain IR and create the 12-6 spin by keeping the fingers rolling over the ball a split second longer than the typical release which creates the 1-7 (catchers vantage point) of the fastball. I think the name "Roll Over Drop" or "Turn Over Drop" is misleading by the nature of the name.....and the way I am seeing it typically taught. I giggle to myself every time I see a pitcher learning this pitch. They force the hand to do some sort of cockeyed downward finish....when clearly, the ball is gone. My interpretation of this pitch is the ball is still thrown the same as an IR fastball. but the FINGERS redirect the spin to 12-6 instead of falling off early creating the 11-7. The rest of the mechanics should be pretty consistant with the fastball. I have watched a ton of Cat's video and to be honest...it's really difficult to determine which pitch she's actually throwing....because the variations in her machanics to modify the spin on the ball are incredibly subtle.

My own learning experience came after purchasing my own Rev Fire 8 months ago.... it was abundantly apparent to me that there was an issue with the typical mindset. Her FB was registering 18-19 RPS..and when she threw a roll over drop...it was only 14-15. She had the pronounced downward finish, but she lost revs and MPH. I learned after futile attempts to get her to ROLL OVER harder.....Snap it down. FINALLY I.....yes I, got so frustrated....I just told her to forget about what your hand does after you throw the ball... just use your fingers to spin the ball so the tape on the ball is on the line with the power line ...... bang....18-19 RPS drop ball. She still struggles with it as far as control....so it's a pitch she only uses against better hitters, or a waste pitch when ahead in the count......but she continues to get closer and closer to learing to control it.

Once again.... not an expert here...just sharing some info I learned through trial and error.