Kinematic Sequence of Softball Pitching

IMO very good video.

txnick said:

IMO very good video.

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Wow, this guy put a lot of thought into this. For me it's easy to follow.

I've often wondered how rotation and weight shift are related? It would seem to me that many kids are taught to rotate hips when hitting or pitching. I think of the hitting drill where the bat is held behind the back, threaded through the crooks of the elbow, and the kids spin or rotate to hit the ball.

Same with pitching when the kids are taught to "slam the door:" the hips spin round a center point, but the weight shift from one leg to the other is slow and the hip can get in the way. Doesn't it really end up that the desired result for both hitting and pitching is one hip drives more into the other to shift weight quicker rather than around a center point? I am just asking based on what I feel.

In other words, make the distance of the rotation between the hips as small as possible to shift the weight quicker, rather than around in a longer circular motion around a center point. I am thinking like the ice skater analogy when the arms are moved in closer to the center of the body the speed of rotation increases as opposed to when the hands are held out and rotate around the body as a center point.

Wouldn't driving one hip into the other in as tight a circle as possible increase the speed of transfer of weight from the push off leg to the stride leg and also keep the throwing side hip out of the way?

Here is the video was talking about.


Core Training for Softball Pitchers

this is joe bonyai from fastpitchpower, he is very thoughtful in the strategies he proposes for maximizing an individual pitcher's strength. power and conditioning in order to allow her to develop the physical tools required to be as successful as she can be, and to prevent injury. there are many great resources at the site that he has posted

I found this very interesting and I think he put a lot of thought into trying to figure out what is going on. As an instructor, it's very easy for me to disagree with things that I do not teach or focus on, but you can't disagree with the observations from the outside. Good job.

-W

starsnuffer said:

I found this very interesting and I think he put a lot of thought into trying to figure out what is going on. As an instructor, it's very easy for me to disagree with things that I do not teach or focus on, but you can't disagree with the observations from the outside. Good job.

-W

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Stars, without agreeing or disagreeing did you understand what I was asking about with the hips and the idea of "rotating?" I got to thinking about it because he said that he was having some communication problems with the pitching instructors. So, I thought that if he could explain the "rotation" as weight shift instead, he might be better able to develop and communicate his ideas with instructors.
I think a lot of young kids start "rotating" their hips by turning their lead hip around a center away from their back hip as an initiating move. The hips kind of just spin - like doing the twist. For me, it is more a feeling of the lead hip resisting and the back hip firing forward, shifting the weight into the lead leg. This ends up looking somewhat like doing the twist at the end of the motion, but the drive comes from the rear hip rotating forward not the lead hip spinning away. Kind of like hitting. Again, not saying right or wrong, agreeing or disagreeing, but he got me thinking, and I was just looking for input.

Hey goosesdad,

Let's just say that right now I've quite a bit to think about regarding this.

I really do not like to use weight shift to describe this motion, as half of the motion occurs (or should occur) while the pitcher is weightless. I think energy shift is a more appropriate term to use.

I'll caveat this by saying that I really dislike arguing nomenclature, as it's usually only something non-athlete adults discuss and the students could care less what we actually call it, so long as we can demonstrate it.

There was a thread recently where the poster asked how the hips actually open after stride, and I think reading through that will answer a lot of how to actually "teach" what the hips should do after stride. I like to compare it to the differences in doing a karate round-house kick (proper pitching mechanics) to a taekwondo round-house kick (improper pitching mechanics. The drive knee on the stride foot must go forward and up before it turns over, instead of turning over as it goes forward (up/out then turn, rather then making an arc).

I really liked the analogy in the second video that uses the back leg to generate the energy/horsepower for the motion. I believe this is true. Pitching is all about generating as much energy as possible, and then transferring that energy as efficiently as possible into the fingertips at release. The more ballistic the transfer, the more efficient. The energy creation does not need to be sudden or ballistic, but the "braking" or transferring of that energy from the drive into the arm is key.

Io do agree that the lead hip resists and the back hip fires forward, but again, the pitcher has no weight on their back leg at this point (or shouldn't if they have good explosion off the rubber). This is why I'm shying from using weight shift here. Now, in a stepping style motion, I agree, but I don't think that is the end goal here.

-W

Yeah, I was talking about the braking and resisting portion of the delivery. I understand what you are saying about nomenclature, but I have found that when a kid is not able to produce what has been physically demonstrated, then I use words and analogies to help with understanding. They help me with the athlete, aspiring athlete or non-athlete.

What I have found is that if a kid is told to "twist" "rotate" "spin" hips, then I will most likely see something with the front hip leading the movement instead of the rear hip firing more into the front. It's the same with hitting - it feels like the rear hip fires into a firm front side resulting in all the weight shifting or all the energy transferring to the front leg. If a kid is told to rotate, spin, or twist, when learning to hit, the transfer of energy into the barrel of the bat is misdirected and slowed.

Like you said, same with pitching, the braking or transferring that energy from the drive into the arm is key. So, what does the backside do after it has driven? How does the backside come into position? This is the area where, to me, it feels like the rear hip fires into the front side preserving the energy that was generated on the push-off and stride. It gets the back side caught up to the front side and transferring the energy instead of lagging behind. But, to me, this doesn't feel like a rotational type, hinged movement like "slam the door closed."

I just thought it could be helpful in clearing things up for kids who have been "taught" to rotate either by emulating a model or given verbal cues. Trying to find cues that help the "feeling" of the desired outcome, and checking my thoughts with others first and maybe getting a better idea through discussion.

I see where you're going with it.

It's a tough one. Like Joe said in his video, the movement and closing/resisting of the hips at this part of the pitch is not emphasized in instruction largely because we need to make sure there is "room" for the arm to come through ahead of the hips. We'll often say "stay open" when we know that in reality the hips do not and cannot stay open, they close 45 degrees or so during the braking.

The more I think about this and watch these videos, the more I'm led to believe that this isn't really a taught motion. This is what happens when a pitcher has what we call a firm front side and good resistance to create the pendulum. I'm starting to believe that when this does not happen correctly, it is more a product of a weak core then it is improper technique. Without the necessary strength to resist, it is impossible for the athlete to do this correctly and they will overcompensate by twisting and spinning as you mention.

Again though, I still have a lot to think about and observations to make as I work with pitchers for the next few weeks. I'm curious as to how you've reached the conclusion that this needs to be a teaching point and what benefits you see from this though, so I can make sure I'm maximizing the benefit here.

-W

I've reached this conclusion by observation and experimentation. However, I do not feel it is proof of any theory. I feel it is helpful to get rid of the lag time kids have between when their lead foot lands and when their back side comes into it. So many beginning pitchers try to emulate what they see being done and end up stepping with the lead foot and bowling with the rear leg back. So, how do I get them to understand that's not it? By concentrating on shifting the weight on the back leg to the front leg quicker, it may be easier for them to use internal rotation of the forearm and "feel" the whip of the ball.

Like you said it is core strength. I don't believe that core strength develops more slowly than strength in other muscle groups. Watching them climb and flip around jungle gyms and goof around makes me think their core strength is fine. I don't know, but I think that learning to use the core in conjunction with other muscle groups may be likely what is lacking. That is the teaching point of bringing the back side through, learning to use the core.

Like you also said, it's the braking that's important. The guy talking in the video got me thinking about the twisting that happens and the hip getting in the way. I've seen a few videos, the one of Ueno in slo-mo that makes my want to try more focus on bringing the back hip through, transferring the energy just at the snap of the whip, but not in it's way. But, it's not rotation of both hips in a plane or the rear hip away from the center, it's the rear hip rotating inwardly in it's joint that I'm thinking about.