The backswing; Does it add speed?

splinterpicker · Apr 12, 2013

I have watched both men and women pitch. The 1 thing I watch is the shoulders in both from wind up to release. The really good ones to me keep their shoulders square as long as possible. The reason I like the double pump is that it keeps the shoulder square. Also I think it benefits relaxing the shoulders. Kinda like the video above. I teach my pitchers the first thing that should get tired pitching is the legs. I have learned much from Hillhouse and wish he posted here more often, but I choose to incorporate it with what my dd and other students can already do. And what are "monkey see girls" please explain. Will women throw as hard as a man, maybe not but the gap has closed considerably in the las ten years or so.

X pitcher · Apr 12, 2013

halskinner said:
When you say 'Cant compare' are you talking about ball speed?

You say the men that are allowed to do all those things when they pitched. But ya know what, I never see ANYBODY else in the circle twisting thier arm and MAKING them cheat.

The point you are resting on is simple, pitching by the rulebook or pitching ilegally.

I DONT TEACH THEM TO PITCH ILEGALLY, However, there are some instructors that do. Every one of them should be tarred and feathered.

I mean that we can't compare the greatness of a pitcher who had to pitch with both feet on the rubber and wasn't allowed to crow hop and replant and a pitcher that was allowed to pitch with one foot on the rubber and crow hop and replant. Can't compare Joe Lynch with Darren Zack, because of the different rules they had to follow. Hal you probably pitched into the 80s and 90s and did both rules as they applied to you. I would have liked the rubber to have been 2-3 inches wider for balance and leverage, but it wasn't and now the guys start with one foot 2 feet behind the rubber. Wow it's a different game. Wouldn't you say the rule change in around 1983 to one foot on changed the game for the worst and the took the art of pitching out of the game? I'd hate to see the women go to one foot on. The circle around the rubber was put there in 1967, my senior year in HS to make the runner go or stay when the pitcher had the ball in the circle. In the early 70s the ISC pitchers that switched to ASA ball were using the over the head wind up to the behind the back arm swing to get in enough arm swing to get in the crop hop and replant. It got into the ASA nationals and the umps didn't know how to call it. It didn't last long before they banned this style. They couldn't figure how these guys could leap and drag that far out of the circle with out an extra step or replant. Nobody could broad jump that far out of the circle, without the extra step/replant. This is where the girls picked up the back arm swing. I'm not just talking with Hal, but giving a little history lesson on where the back arm swing in the girls game came from. Sorry about the lack of ,,,,s. Guys don't use the back arm swing any more.
Why would guys want to release the ball that close to the batter when the hitter isn't allowed to hit the ball out of and in front of the batters box. Speed is easier to hit than movement anyways. If this needs more explaining, ask and I'll try to express in a different easier way.

BoardMember · Apr 13, 2013

Here's the conundrum in a nut shell..........And this could be a long post:

Not JUST for the reason I posted above regarding how arm swing and leg drive are DIRECTLY linked for the most explosive movement from a standing non-split start.......BUT.......For SEVERAL other reasons that include the stretch reflex triggered by the stretch receptors in muscle fiber creating the stretch shortening cycle (SSC) that involves eccentric then concentric muscle contraction......

The bio-mechanics are INDISPUTABLE regarding whether arm swing and reversal that accompanies it is a NET ADDER to velocity........

Hell, you can't even say leg drive is a net adder to velocity without understanding how arm swing is a catalyst for leg drive.......If you do you are ONLY fooling yourself and others who are less educated on the subject........

HOWEVER.........and here is the conundrum.........

You have to decide........Is the "dead start hide the ball" theory MORE important to you than the net adder of arm swing / leg drive........

That IS the issue.........Some believe hiding the ball is more important.........Others believe that the added velocity from enhanced leg drive and utilizing the SSC with a quick down and back start is more important...........

I understand BOTH camps..........They are BOTH valid...........

I am from the latter camp........It's just my opinion........I coach mostly GIRLS........And it IS my experience that girls benefit from the arm swing for the reason I stated above..........I also believe that IF you are NOT telegraphing different grips IN THE GLOVE, and your arm swing is quick and short.........It is almost IMPOSSIBLE to pick up different pitches from the time the ball leaves the glove until the reversal.....

I'll tell you from experience...........IN THE GLOVE is the MOST COMMON place pitches are picked.........If you have a coach picking pitches during the quickness of the arm circle and somehow communicating them to the hitter in the 10th of second it takes to complete the circle and release the ball, you are NOT helping your hitter..........And in fact, you are probably causing confusion as the brain tries to work out the trajectory in that 10th of a second..........Now........Picking them IN THE GLOVE is a whole different story.......

The question was asked in the thread "Why do pitchers twist around and move the glove from side to side pre-motion.........The reason is to keep the coaches eye occupied with that movement as he tries to pick the grip inside the glove.........It's the same reason pitchers take the ball in glove UP and DOWN while fixing the grip.........Distractive movement while fixing the grip.........

I will never argue with Bill......Who like to hide the ball and start with no arm swing.........Conversely........I will never argue with Rich Balswick or my own D1 success stories with regard to allowing arm swing when done CORRECTLY so as not to create a long pause, or too long of a backward movement..........It must be quick........And fairly short in my opinion.......To take advantage of BOTH hiding the ball and the bio-mechanical advantage of the arm swing........

It's just my opinion........And it's worth what you paid for it..........

NewBucketDad · Apr 13, 2013

BoardMember said:
Here's the conundrum in a nut shell..........And this could be a long post:

Not JUST for the reason I posted above regarding how arm swing and leg drive are DIRECTLY linked for the most explosive movement from a standing non-split start.......BUT.......For SEVERAL other reasons that include the stretch reflex triggered by the stretch receptors in muscle fiber creating the stretch shortening cycle (SSC) that involves eccentric then concentric muscle contraction......

The bio-mechanics are INDISPUTABLE regarding whether arm swing and reversal that accompanies it is a NET ADDER to velocity........

Hell, you can't even say leg drive is a net adder to velocity without understanding how arm swing is a catalyst for leg drive.......If you do you are ONLY fooling yourself and others who are less educated on the subject........

HOWEVER.........and here is the conundrum.........

You have to decide........Is the "dead start hide the ball" theory MORE important to you than the net adder of arm swing / leg drive........

That IS the issue.........Some believe hiding the ball is more important.........Others believe that the added velocity from enhanced leg drive and utilizing the SSC with a quick down and back start is more important...........

I understand BOTH camps..........They are BOTH valid...........

I am from the latter camp........It's just my opinion........I coach mostly GIRLS........And it IS my experience that girls benefit from the arm swing for the reason I stated above..........I also believe that IF you are NOT telegraphing different grips IN THE GLOVE, and your arm swing is quick and short.........It is almost IMPOSSIBLE to pick up different pitches from the time the ball leaves the glove until the reversal.....

I'll tell you from experience...........IN THE GLOVE is the MOST COMMON place pitches are picked.........If you have a coach picking pitches during the quickness of the arm circle and somehow communicating them to the hitter in the 10th of second it takes to complete the circle and release the ball, you are NOT helping your hitter..........And in fact, you are probably causing confusion as the brain tries to work out the trajectory in that 10th of a second..........Now........Picking them IN THE GLOVE is a whole different story.......

The question was asked in the thread "Why do pitchers twist around and move the glove from side to side pre-motion.........The reason is to keep the coaches eye occupied with that movement as he tries to pick the grip inside the glove.........It's the same reason pitchers take the ball in glove UP and DOWN while fixing the grip.........Distractive movement while fixing the grip.........

I will never argue with Bill......Who like to hide the ball and start with no arm swing.........Conversely........I will never argue with Rich Balswick or my own D1 success stories with regard to allowing arm swing when done CORRECTLY so as not to create a long pause, or too long of a backward movement..........It must be quick........And fairly short in my opinion.......To take advantage of BOTH hiding the ball and the bio-mechanical advantage of the arm swing........

It's just my opinion........And it's worth what you paid for it..........

I agree 100% with you BM. I think Hillhouse is great but I really find it hard to believe that another team can get a tip from a pitch consistently in that amount of time.

NewBucketDad · Apr 13, 2013

X pitcher said:
Why would guys want to release the ball that close to the batter when the hitter isn't allowed to hit the ball out of and in front of the batters box. Speed is easier to hit than movement anyways. If this needs more explaining, ask and I'll try to express in a different easier way.

Thanks Xpitcher...but wouldn't you as a pitcher want to be closer to the batter when you release the ball, giving the batter less time to react? I know speeds not everything but don't most have movement with speed anyways?

NewBucketDad · Apr 13, 2013

ueno out of the circle 5'8 i think slender athletic build 70+

NewBucketDad · Apr 13, 2013

Jenny Finch out of the circle 6'1 slender athletic build 70+

NewBucketDad · Apr 13, 2013

Chelsea Thomas not coming out of the circle 5'10 very husky powerful girl 70+ (by the way I think shes great)

And from what I see she does have a small back swing with the ball out of the glove

X pitcher · Apr 13, 2013

So many questions to answer and so many thoughts that my fingers can't keep up with on this key board. We are in the back arm swing and does it add speed, and then were also talking and wondering of the back arm swing give more help to the leg drive...Look at Chelsea Thomas who throws the ball 72 MPH, and she doesn't use the back arm swing to get that ball speed or the leg drive. She Hides the ball and gets her forward start with both hands together going forward with the ball in the glove until almost 1/4 of her arm circle is finished. She shows the ball only 3/4 of her arm circle and gets her speed from the down swing or last 180 degrees of the arm circle. She get her spin for the peel drop from her finger tips and the last finger to touch the ball is her middle/longest finger. She puts a little rock into her stride with speed and spin to create the best peel drop in the college game and maybe all of the female game. She also throws a good rise ball and a good change up from the same delivery. That is 3 pitches altogether. No curve or screw just vertical movement at 70+ mph.
How far do you think the circle is from the rubber? Some one please tell us all. Is it 4' or 8'?
@ BM if I though some base coach was trying to pick my pitches, I would purposely show him a circle change grip or a knuckle rise ball grip and change it in the glove and throw a peel drop with a different grip than the rise or the change.
Why does a catcher give signs to a pitcher that calls their own game. Just so they know what is coming up or down. If the catcher calls a pitch the pitcher doesn't want to pitch the pitcher shakes it off. Why do catchers use a series of signs with a runner on 2nd base. You know. Why is a the same location on the plate the same spot on the plate for a left handed slapper as it is for a right handed power hitter? Isn't it to keep the slapper from hitting the outside pitch toward the ss and making the rh power hitter to hit the out side pitch toward the 2nd baseman? So you pitch the lefty inside and the righty outside to challenge them to hit your pitch where you want it to go. A pitcher can control the game with location if they throw 70 plus mph with vertical movement. Ad a great change up and a pitcher becomes a world beater. Like I said my fingers can't keep up with my thought and if I forget something. Sorry I'm old. I have a few FB friends that are playing in the 60U nationals every year. WOW.

X pitcher · Apr 13, 2013

NewBucketDad said:
Chelsea Thomas not coming out of the circle 5'10 very husky powerful girl 70+ (by the way I think shes great)

And from what I see she does have a small back swing with the ball out of the glove

What year is this video from? 2-3 three years ago? Look at the Mizzlou FB page for recent pictures. And the circle is only 4 feet in front of the rubber not 8 feet. The shorter stride is for the benefit of her Peel Drop. She comes off the rubber with ball in glove now a days. She jumps and drags. Some step and drag. She rocks and fires. She is the best.JMHO

The backswing; Does it add speed?

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