Throwing Balls

[Hillhouse]

In baseball the slider, cutter and sweeper all have substantial horizontal movement and can be an important part of any pitcher's arsenal (Mariano Rivera: just a fastball and a cutter). So horizontally breaking pitches can be effective. But a crappy slider, cutter or sweeper can get crushed so it is not so much the nature of the pitch itself but the quality of it that matters, and in softball I don't see a lot of quality curve balls. That could be for several reasons, it is taught poorly, or maybe the size and weight of the ball make it a difficult pitch to learn and throw with the correct spin.

A baseball pitcher is automatically going to have vertical movement because they pitch from an elevated mound not flat ground. Regardless of what pitch they throw, the ball has to travel downward for it to be a strike. How far down it goes can vary and is reflected on where it ends up in the strikezone, if at all.

 

[Hillhouse]

I find people that play both say they are different. I played both but neither at a high level. I always felt in fastpitch it was the pitch up and away I had to get too without missing or popping up, and in baseball it was the pitch low and away I had protect to barrel up and not hit grounders. Not that all locations could not be used effectively in both.

I am curious as to what you think the differences are?

I don't know, I don't pretend to know the differences. I was just reiterating what others claim to say, interestingly I have never heard someone who has played both at a high level say they are the same. It always seems to be the baseball guy who doesn't want to only work with 1/2 the market. By saying the swing is the same means they get to work with both boys and girls. In 23 years of doing lessons I've only ever seen 1 lady who played softball do hitting lessons for a boy hitting a baseball. She played P5 softball and has a hitting lesson business. I'm sure there are more ladies like her out there, I'm just saying I've only seen 1. Personally, I know just enough about hitting to be dangerous but I would never ever try working with a hitter on their swing, I simply don't know how to fix things. I can see things when pitching to someone which I can identify in their swing regarding how and what I'd throw to them to get them out. But I don't pretend to know how to correct someone's swing.

That said, I still think there's a huge difference between swing mechanics and hitting the ball, which is what I said earlier or on a different thread I can't remember which. One can have the sweetest swing in the world off a tee or soft toss but, can't put bat to ball when a pitch is thrown.

In my career, I've played with dozens and dozens of guys who played baseball collegiately and professionally, including a good number who played MLB. To a man, everyone says hitting fastpitch softball is quite a bit more difficult than baseball. Most say it's not even close. Many of them just need time to adjust seeing the ball. Obviously they're not used to seeing a ball go upward, or how to lay off those pitches that go upward too much. But you don't make it through the ranks of pro baseball without an insane amount of hand/eye coordination. They need time to see it and make the adjustments accordingly. So, is that all there is to it for them to adjust to fastpitch? Just time and reps? Or is a swing adjustment necessary too? Perhaps both.

I know it's usually in good fun when someone like Jennie Finch pitches to, and strikes out, Albert Pujols at MLB All Star games. And people who simply don't know any better think these type shows are fair and mistake his inability to hit the ball with her being "so dominate". Give him a week, a couple days, or even just 1 day of seeing softball pitching then re-do the experiment. He'd put it off her forehead. Probably off mine too. That's how insanely good those guys are at hitting balls.

 

[RADcatcher]

When hitting I like to stand at the front of the box.

If a pitcher is going to throw an effective drop to me they would have to get the ball to drop lower sooner (to be effective on me) which would be difficult for it to continue to be a strike. In this way I can determine it's already going to be too low to be a strike or it stays at a wonderful place for me to be able to crush it.

If a pitcher is going to throw a curve to me they would have to get the ball to break sooner (to be effective on me) sooner in front of the plate. In this way I can determine if it's already going to be too outside to be a strike or it stays at a wonderful place for me to be able to crush it.

If a pitcher is going to throw a rise ball to me. I make the same decision I would no matter where I stood in the Box,
if it is shoulder height or lower I will crush it. The bat/ Barrel is already held up simply need to rotate around.

Change-ups are recognizing the pitch speed has been altered and making an adjustment to wait a moment before crushing it. No matter where standing in the Box.


( to those who might say why not scoot back in the box...)
Splitting milliseconds is irrelevant for me when it comes to recognizing pitch and location and decision to crush it. I have a fast explosive swing that's direct behind the ball directly to it. (do NOT have mechanics that immediately force hands/bat path/direction of barrel I may not want.
Like starting with low hands and having to go up or those that drop hands/bat down at the beginning of a swing, *every time on *every swing. Of which some mechanics force that)
No need for me to readjust what's already been started because I don't have a forced path (down or up) direction built into the mechanics that needs Readjustment for pitch locations that might be different each time, high low in and out.

This is where paying attention to batter swings is truly helpful because some batters have an automatic downward immediate trajectory. And some Force down and up very quickly. Some hands start so low they have to force up like on a rise.
Paying attention to these things is how to beat batters because they have a distinct hand and/or bat pattern that has a larger Readjustment forced into it for certain pitches.

I can hit a rise no problem and work down with pitch location.

 

[Hillhouse]

When hitting I like to stand at the front of the box.

If a pitcher is going to throw an effective drop to me they would have to get the ball to drop lower sooner (to be effective on me) which would be difficult for it to continue to be a strike. In this way I can determine it's already going to be too low to be a strike or it stays at a wonderful place for me to be able to crush it.

If a pitcher is going to throw a curve to me they would have to get the ball to break sooner (to be effective on me) sooner in front of the plate. In this way I can determine if it's already going to be too outside to be a strike or it stays at a wonderful place for me to be able to crush it.

If a pitcher is going to throw a rise ball to me. I make the same decision I would no matter where I stood in the Box,
if it is shoulder height or lower I will crush it. The bat/ Barrel is already held up simply need to rotate around.

Change-ups are recognizing the pitch speed has been altered and making an adjustment to wait a moment before crushing it. No matter where standing in the Box.


( to those who might say why not scoot back in the box...)
Splitting milliseconds is irrelevant for me when it comes to recognizing pitch and location and decision to crush it. I have a fast explosive swing that's direct behind the ball directly to it. (do NOT have mechanics that immediately force hands/bat path/direction of barrel I may not want.
Like starting with low hands and having to go up or those that drop hands/bat down at the beginning of a swing, *every time on *every swing. Of which some mechanics force that)
No need for me to readjust what's already been started because I don't have a forced path (down or up) direction built into the mechanics that needs Readjustment for pitch locations that might be different each time, high low in and out.

This is where paying attention to batter swings is truly helpful because some batters have an automatic downward immediate trajectory. And some Force down and up very quickly. Some hands start so low they have to force up like on a rise.
Paying attention to these things is how to beat batters because they have a distinct hand and/or bat pattern that has a larger Readjustment forced into it for certain pitches.

I can hit a rise no problem and work down with pitch location.

I'm the opposite, I stay as far back in the box as I can get. Including trying to kick the chalk out of the back line of the batters box so I can try to scoot further back. Eventually the catcher has to tell the umpire, forcing me to move up. It's common for umpires to grab the bat, lay it down with one end on home plate, then they draw a line in the dirt where the other end is and tell me that's my batters box. STAY IN IT. lol. Of course, I still try to creep backwards.

"Win if you can. Lose if you have to. But always always cheat!!!" - Bobby The Brain Heenan. lol. That man had some of the best one liners ever.

 

[RADcatcher]

I'm the opposite, I stay as far back in the box as I can get. Including trying to kick the chalk out of the back line of the batters box so I can try to scoot further back. Eventually the catcher has to tell the umpire, forcing me to move up. It's common for umpires to grab the bat, lay it down with one end on home plate, then they draw a line in the dirt where the other end is and tell me that's my batters box. STAY IN IT. lol. Of course, I still try to creep backwards.

"Win if you can. Lose if you have to. But always always cheat!!!" - Bobby The Brain Heenan. lol. That man had some of the best one liners ever.

What is the hardest pitch & location for you to hit?

 

[Hillhouse]

What is the hardest pitch & location for you to hit?

For me, it was outside. I feel like I could track a riseball outside better than I could a drop but both were harder for me outside rather than inside. I don't know if I have problems with depth perception sight, but outside pitches to me always looked TOO outside. After the games, I'd ask the pitchers/catchers "was that actually there?" I'd usually get a "yes" reply.

I'd got to batting cages, the old "Iron mike" ones that have the arm that spins around so you can see the ball clearly, and I'd purposely stand far off the plate so I could see and track balls outside. I did ok on those, probably because I knew where it was going.

Overall, I feel like I hit riseballs better than dropballs. But, again, I was pretty good at picking pitchers so I usually had a good idea what pitch was coming. Of course, I still had to hit it which wasn't easy. I know this is going to create a storm and I'm not really looking to re-ignite the whole debate but, I still wish all the people who say the ball doesn't actually rise would stand in the box for themselves against a good riseball pitcher. I know I know I know, "it's not physically possible for a person to spin a ball enough to curve upwards against gravity." Sigh.

How about you Turbo, what was your favorite and last favorite?

 

[RADcatcher]

For me, it was outside. I feel like I could track a riseball outside better than I could a drop but both were harder for me outside rather than inside. I don't know if I have problems with depth perception sight, but outside pitches to me always looked TOO outside. After the games, I'd ask the pitchers/catchers "was that actually there?" I'd usually get a "yes" reply.

I'd got to batting cages, the old "Iron mike" ones that have the arm that spins around so you can see the ball clearly, and I'd purposely stand far off the plate so I could see and track balls outside. I did ok on those, probably because I knew where it was going.

Overall, I feel like I hit riseballs better than dropballs. But, again, I was pretty good at picking pitchers so I usually had a good idea what pitch was coming. Of course, I still had to hit it which wasn't easy. I know this is going to create a storm and I'm not really looking to re-ignite the whole debate but, I still wish all the people who say the ball doesn't actually rise would stand in the box for themselves against a good riseball pitcher. I know I know I know, "it's not physically possible for a person to spin a ball enough to curve upwards against gravity." Sigh.

How about you Turbo, what was your favorite and last favorite?

Pitchers throw whatever you like,
i like to hit!
Never was a batter who would try to guess what a pitcher was going to throw.
I worked on hitting anything and everything and okay to hit stuff out of the zone too!

Like you Mr B, i'm also good at reading pitchers mechanics reading pitches.
Watching how arm hand is releasing definitely a bonus!

Change-ups weren't my favorite. But I can be real quick at dropping down a sneak bunt and even doing a drag dropping the barrel behind my body as I already started running from the right side botters box. Screens the third baseman from seeing what the bat is doing.

 

[RADcatcher]

I know I know I know, "it's not physically possible for a person to spin a ball enough to curve upwards against gravity." Sigh.

Haahhhaaa

How about you Turbo,

When I played in women's pro league baseball (think I was already 32 having been about two years off from fastpitch.) Stepping in the Box against overhand pitchers. All the trajectory was coming down. We did batting practice with men throwing live pitching from the AAA leagues. Everything coming down from overhand. Amazingly easier to read what's coming. Because it has to come into the strike zone. Definitely different than a pitch like in Fastpitch that starts in the strike zone being released and goes away from zone.


What I recognized is from all the times of reading over hand throws playing fast pitch I was able to tell the trajectory of the baseball coming. Didn't need any time to figure out reading the ball coming out of the pitchers hand.
Plus it was coming from a longer distance and the trajectory was more perceivable than in fp.

Those bb pitchers were throwing in the 80s mph.
And I had to wait for the pitch to get there. Having already being trained with a very fast explosive swing.

 

[ArmWhip]

A baseball pitcher is automatically going to have vertical movement because they pitch from an elevated mound not flat ground. Regardless of what pitch they throw, the ball has to travel downward for it to be a strike.

So it must be harder to hit in baseball because there's more vertical movement built into every pitch.

 

[RADcatcher]

The Sports Science Behind Hitting a Softball Versus Hitting a Baseball | LeagueApps

Using technology, The ESPN Sport Science team compares the difficulties of hitting a softball versus a baseball.

leagueapps.com

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So it must be harder to hit in baseball because there's more vertical movement built into every pitch.

The pitch angle for baseball is always comming down = always looking for the pitch to come down into the zone.


Think it's hard to compare as there are several different factors involved. For instance reaction time in Fastpitch is shorter. And Fastpitch pitches have more trajectory angles = more visual decision for the batter.
Like pitches that can end up 30+ inches higher than they were released.