Throwing Balls

[Hillhouse]

Horizontally breaking pitches get a bad rap because a lot of times people assume that when the bat moves through the contact zone it is level (horizontal), the old 'level swing', which really doesn't exist.

Ok, fair enough. But, there is no such thing as a swing that is vertical. A horizontal swing, even if it's not 100% straight is still much more level than if someone held the bat up and down. Generally speaking a hitter is swinging a bat at where they see the ball (on flat pitches) or where they think the ball will be on movement pitches. This is how hitters mishit the ball for pop ups, groundouts.

I think what gets lost on people is the fact that almost all things are playing the percentages. Nothing is absolute. Having your corners move in, looking for a bunt, with 0 outs in the 7th and a runner on 2 is playing the percentages that the hitter is going to bunt trying to move the runner. Having your infielders play in with a R3 and less than 2 outs is the percentages of trying to cut the runner down at home on an infield groundball.

Pitching is all about playing the %'s too.

Also, it's a misnomer to say "horizontal breaking pitcheS". There is only 1 pitch that breaks horizontal, a curve. There is no such thing as a screwball that actually breaks inward. This is why you see pitchers needing entirely different mechanics for the pitch, stepping way out, and their arm goes way out, etc. If anyone wants to discuss the advantages of a RHP throwing INSIDE to a RHB, I'll do that all day. But lets at least be honest about how the pitch gets inside. It's not curving inward.

No doubt I'll get a reply or PM about how someone's kid has a great screwball and I don't know what I'm saying.

 

[daywalkerdad]

First we need to define what break is. To me it is different than primary pitch usually a fastball. Does a riseball rise (curve up) no. Does a riseball end up higher than a fastball, yes.

 

[RADcatcher]

Varying pitch speeds can be enough to throw off batters.

Change-ups for strikes often look like a straight pitch. Until the deception happens!

 

[Tango]

I don't know what an "SE thing" is.

Here's how I see it: if a hitter goes up to bat, is looking for a dropball and swings the bat accordingly, yet instead of a drop, I threw a rise... she's screwed. Not going to touch it. If she's looking for a riseball, swings the bat accordingly, yet I throw a drop, she's screwed again. Not going to touch it. However, if a hitter goes up to bat looking for a "screwball" (cough, cough) and I throw a curve, she's likely to still put decent bat on the ball since it's not changing plains. If she goes up looking for a curve but, I threw a "screwball" (double cough cough), once again, the likelihood of getting good bat to ball is still pretty good. And in today's game, composite bats with polycore balls, 90lbs slappers can hit the ball 300'. So, the best chance for them to mishit the ball is better with North/South pitches if they make contact at all.

Once again, this is about playing the percentages. What pitch do I have the greatest % of getting that hitter out with, where if they hit the ball it won't be hit as solid?

I will tell you that I've change my opinion somewhat on a curveball. Not because I think it's a good pitch or because I think the percentages are in my favor, because I don't. I still think a curve is a more dangerous pitch to throw when it comes to contact. But, for whatever reason, girls struggle to hit the curve. I don't know why. I see that to be true in games I watch and when I throw BP to hitters. I don't know if that's because girls tend to guess more at the plate or what.

I know you have rules about when you shouldn’t throw a rise. I think you have a rule about not throwing a change (not sure), does that in some cases leave with only drop as a pitch?

 

[Hillhouse]

I know you have rules about when you shouldn’t throw a rise. I think you have a rule about not throwing a change (not sure), does that in some cases leave with only drop as a pitch?

I can't tell if you're being serious or just trying to pick a fight. LOL.

Of course it doesn't leave the drop at the only pitch. You can throw whatever, whenever. But, if you're playing the percentages then there are times when the drop is your best option. But that doesn't mean there is an absolute hard, fast "rule". With a R3 and less than 2 outs, what is more likely to induce a sac fly a rise or a drop? Obviously the rise. Does that mean a rise will not work? Of course not. You could get them to swing/miss. They could also swing down on the ball, like trying to tomahawk it, getting a ground ball. Those things can happen , although the strikeout is probably more likely than someone swinging down like an axe.

And, for the change up, again play the percentages. Is it smart to throw a change up when the hitter is way behind the pitch speed? No. Does that mean you can't get a hitter out with it? No again. Personally, I wouldn't wanna throw a change up to a slapper with less than 2 strikes. Good slappers who can identify the pitch early enough will just drop a bunt. Again, that doesn't mean it won't get someone out. But, again playing percentages, the odds of them trying to bunt with 2 strikes is almost zero.

With the amount of HR's these days, and that composite bats and polycore balls can make anyone into a HR hitter, to me it makes sense to primarily throw dropballs when winning by 1 or 2 runs from the 6th inning onward. A mistake riseball is more likely to get hit out of the yard than a mistake dropball is. Again, it's playing the percentages.

 

[Tango]

I can't tell if you're being serious or just trying to pick a fight. LOL.

Of course it doesn't leave the drop at the only pitch. You can throw whatever, whenever. But, if you're playing the percentages then there are times when the drop is your best option. But that doesn't mean there is an absolute hard, fast "rule". With a R3 and less than 2 outs, what is more likely to induce a sac fly a rise or a drop? Obviously the rise. Does that mean a rise will not work? Of course not. You could get them to swing/miss. They could also swing down on the ball, like trying to tomahawk it, getting a ground ball. Those things can happen , although the strikeout is probably more likely than someone swinging down like an axe.

And, for the change up, again play the percentages. Is it smart to throw a change up when the hitter is way behind the pitch speed? No. Does that mean you can't get a hitter out with it? No again. Personally, I wouldn't wanna throw a change up to a slapper with less than 2 strikes. Good slappers who can identify the pitch early enough will just drop a bunt. Again, that doesn't mean it won't get someone out. But, again playing percentages, the odds of them trying to bunt with 2 strikes is almost zero.

With the amount of HR's these days, and that composite bats and polycore balls can make anyone into a HR hitter, to me it makes sense to primarily throw dropballs when winning by 1 or 2 runs from the 6th inning onward. A mistake riseball is more likely to get hit out of the yard than a mistake dropball is. Again, it's playing the percentages.

I can't tell if you're being serious or just trying to pick a fight. LOL.

Of course it doesn't leave the drop at the only pitch. You can throw whatever, whenever. But, if you're playing the percentages then there are times when the drop is your best option. But that doesn't mean there is an absolute hard, fast "rule". With a R3 and less than 2 outs, what is more likely to induce a sac fly a rise or a drop? Obviously the rise. Does that mean a rise will not work? Of course not. You could get them to swing/miss. They could also swing down on the ball, like trying to tomahawk it, getting a ground ball. Those things can happen , although the strikeout is probably more likely than someone swinging down like an axe.

And, for the change up, again play the percentages. Is it smart to throw a change up when the hitter is way behind the pitch speed? No. Does that mean you can't get a hitter out with it? No again. Personally, I wouldn't wanna throw a change up to a slapper with less than 2 strikes. Good slappers who can identify the pitch early enough will just drop a bunt. Again, that doesn't mean it won't get someone out. But, again playing percentages, the odds of them trying to bunt with 2 strikes is almost zero.

With the amount of HR's these days, and that composite bats and polycore balls can make anyone into a HR hitter, to me it makes sense to primarily throw dropballs when winning by 1 or 2 runs from the 6th inning onward. A mistake riseball is more likely to get hit out of the yard than a mistake dropball is. Again, it's playing the percentages.

Agree and wasn't trying to pick a fight. You had stated that if throwing a drop and they had a good swing then throw rise but then also said don't throw rise in some situations. I guess you are basically saying use common sense. I think on a message board things can get confusing. My DD's rise isn't good and she doesn't throw hard (58 on a good day), so rise after a good swing on a drop may not be her best option.

 

[Hillhouse]

Agree and wasn't trying to pick a fight. You had stated that if throwing a drop and they had a good swing then throw rise but then also said don't throw rise in some situations. I guess you are basically saying use common sense. I think on a message board things can get confusing. My DD's rise isn't good and she doesn't throw hard (58 on a good day), so rise after a good swing on a drop may not be her best option.

I don't think I said anything about anyone having a good swing. What I said was, if a hitter goes up to the plate and is anticipating a dropball but I threw a rise instead, the hitter isn't likely to touch the ball. Conversely, if they look for the rise but I threw a drop, they will have equal trouble. I'm not sure where I referenced someone having a good swing.

Every pitch is situational and there are no absolutes here. If I'm playing a team who gets a R3 with 1 out, but the hitter coming up is a baseball guy, with a baseball swing, then (going by the percentages) that hitter isn't likely to hit my riseball. Even if everyone believes that the baseball/softball swings are the same, a hitter who isn't used to seeing a ball going up isn't likely to keep their hands high enough to hit the riseball. So, situationally, throwing a riseball there isn't a bad idea. If the hitter is a fastpitch veteran who is simply looking to hit a fly ball to score the run, then by the percentages, I'm better off throwing a dropball. And if he's a RHB, then change ups can be a good thing too since I don't want him hitting the ball to the right side of the field. On a change, he will likely pull the ball where the 3B and SS can check the runner back. In my experience a R3 will more likely go on contact when/if the ball is hit to the right side.

 

[daywalkerdad]

If I'm playing a team who gets a R3 with 1 out, but the hitter coming up is a baseball guy, with a baseball swing, then (going by the percentages) that hitter isn't likely to hit my riseball. Even if everyone believes that the baseball/softball swings are the same, a hitter who isn't used to seeing a ball going up isn't likely to keep their hands high enough to hit the riseball. So, situationally, throwing a riseball there isn't a bad idea.

I find people that play both say they are different. I played both but neither at a high level. I always felt in fastpitch it was the pitch up and away I had to get too without missing or popping up, and in baseball it was the pitch low and away I had protect to barrel up and not hit grounders. Not that all locations could not be used effectively in both.

I am curious as to what you think the differences are?

 

[ArmWhip]

Good point. I do tend to prefer the up and down pitches myself, for the reasons Bill mentions.

But there's something about the curve. My DD threw a ton last night and it was strikeouts, pop-ups to Short and grounders to the right side. Super effective. Perhaps just a lucky day for a single game, I don't know. But something about the curve works.

In baseball the slider, cutter and sweeper all have substantial horizontal movement and can be an important part of any pitcher's arsenal (Mariano Rivera: just a fastball and a cutter). So horizontally breaking pitches can be effective. But a crappy slider, cutter or sweeper can get crushed so it is not so much the nature of the pitch itself but the quality of it that matters, and in softball I don't see a lot of quality curve balls. That could be for several reasons, it is taught poorly, or maybe the size and weight of the ball make it a difficult pitch to learn and throw with the correct spin.

 

[LEsoftballdad]

In baseball the slider, cutter and sweeper all have substantial horizontal movement and can be an important part of any pitcher's arsenal (Mariano Rivera: just a fastball and a cutter). So horizontally breaking pitches can be effective. But a crappy slider, cutter or sweeper can get crushed so it is not so much the nature of the pitch itself but the quality of it that matters, and in softball I don't see a lot of quality curve balls. That could be for several reasons, it is taught poorly, or maybe the size and weight of the ball make it a difficult pitch to learn and throw with the correct spin.

But those pitches also have significant vertical movement, don't they? I think comparing baseball pitches thrown overhand to softball ones is tough.

Rivera was amazing to watch for all those years. Talk about pinpoint control.