Throwing Balls

[daywalkerdad]

Baseball has no pitch that leaves the pitchers hand vertical trajectory, the crosses the plate at a downward trajectory.
A fastball, drop ball, change all do this in softball all do this. A rise, screw curve can do this as well.
A hitter must determine apex as well as movement. From a pure hypothetical standpoint this would make up down movement very difficult to hit.

 

[ArmWhip]

But those pitches also have significant vertical movement, don't they? I think comparing baseball pitches thrown overhand to softball ones is tough.

It's a good question, but keep in mind that 4 seam fastballs are rarely thrown with pure backspin because of the arm/hand angle at release, so you could also say the 'vertical' pitches in baseball have some horizontal movement. For some reason in baseball a curve ball breaks down, not sideways, and it can have pure vertical break, but not often. A sinker moves to the arm side of a pitcher. Comparing the baseball and softball trajectories in the contact zone is interesting. A softball is much bigger and heavier than a baseball and thrown with a significantly less velocity, these physical factors would suggest that the softball trajectory would decay faster than a baseball's leading to more natural down angle at the plate, but who knows?

 

[LEsoftballdad]

It's a good question, but keep in mind that 4 seam fastballs are rarely thrown with pure backspin because of the arm/hand angle at release, so you could also say the 'vertical' pitches in baseball have some horizontal movement. For some reason in baseball a curve ball breaks down, not sideways, and it can have pure vertical break, but not often. A sinker moves to the arm side of a pitcher. Comparing the baseball and softball trajectories in the contact zone is interesting. A softball is much bigger and heavier than a baseball and thrown with a significantly less velocity, these physical factors would suggest that the softball trajectory would decay faster than a baseball's leading to more natural down angle at the plate, but who knows?

Having done some pitching in baseball, I can say the arm angles make a huge difference, as does the release points. I remember watching Cone and El Duque drop down to almost side arm to a righty, and they'd throw that slider that would give the batter what Jim Kaat called Jelly Leg. You can't do that in softball. Also, it is much easier to impart spin on a ball thrown overhand than one underhanded.

It's a fascinating comparison, but I think baseball pitching is actually easier, to a degree. That's not to say it is easier to master. It's just more natural since the motion is the same whether you're throwing from third to first, or from the mound. Softball requires an entirely different motion for girls to learn.

 

[ArmWhip]

I did find this:

In baseball, virtually all pitches enter the hitting zone between a -4 and -21 degree angle (Driveline Baseball: Using Swing Plane to Coach Hitters, A Deeper Look), therefore the best attack angle would fall somewhere between +4 and +21 degrees in order to “match plane”. Note that a -21 degree pitch was a 12-6 curve ball, and no pitch in fastpitch softball repertoire can replicate that level of vertical break. (Please note, a positive AA is an upward swing through the zone).

In softball, we have seen the ball enter the hitting zone between -3 degrees and -12 degrees (recorded through various Hittrax Live at bat sessions), so therefore the swing should have an attack angle between +3 and +12 degrees. To give a better idea, a +3 degree is a much “flatter” swing, although still slightly upward, while a +12 degree swing has a much more upward path to it.

 

[CoachCeetar]

The extra 23+ feet also gives you a lot more time to have a pitch break

 

[LEsoftballdad]

The extra 23+ feet also gives you a lot more time to have a pitch break

Your numbers are off. It's 17.5 feet longer. 60.5 versus 43.

 

[CoachCeetar]

Your numbers are off. It's 17.5 feet longer. 60.5 versus 43.

duh. I moved the decimal and made it 66.

same point, and hey, it's true for 10u!

 

[Tango]

I don't think I said anything about anyone having a good swing. What I said was, if a hitter goes up to the plate and is anticipating a dropball but I threw a rise instead, the hitter isn't likely to touch the ball. Conversely, if they look for the rise but I threw a drop, they will have equal trouble. I'm not sure where I referenced someone having a good swing.

Every pitch is situational and there are no absolutes here. If I'm playing a team who gets a R3 with 1 out, but the hitter coming up is a baseball guy, with a baseball swing, then (going by the percentages) that hitter isn't likely to hit my riseball. Even if everyone believes that the baseball/softball swings are the same, a hitter who isn't used to seeing a ball going up isn't likely to keep their hands high enough to hit the riseball. So, situationally, throwing a riseball there isn't a bad idea. If the hitter is a fastpitch veteran who is simply looking to hit a fly ball to score the run, then by the percentages, I'm better off throwing a dropball. And if he's a RHB, then change ups can be a good thing too since I don't want him hitting the ball to the right side of the field. On a change, he will likely pull the ball where the 3B and SS can check the runner back. In my experience a R3 will more likely go on contact when/if the ball is hit to the right side.

I don't think I said anything about anyone having a good swing. What I said was, if a hitter goes up to the plate and is anticipating a dropball but I threw a rise instead, the hitter isn't likely to touch the ball. Conversely, if they look for the rise but I threw a drop, they will have equal trouble. I'm not sure where I referenced someone having a good swing.

Every pitch is situational and there are no absolutes here. If I'm playing a team who gets a R3 with 1 out, but the hitter coming up is a baseball guy, with a baseball swing, then (going by the percentages) that hitter isn't likely to hit my riseball. Even if everyone believes that the baseball/softball swings are the same, a hitter who isn't used to seeing a ball going up isn't likely to keep their hands high enough to hit the riseball. So, situationally, throwing a riseball there isn't a bad idea. If the hitter is a fastpitch veteran who is simply looking to hit a fly ball to score the run, then by the percentages, I'm better off throwing a dropball. And if he's a RHB, then change ups can be a good thing too since I don't want him hitting the ball to the right side of the field. On a change, he will likely pull the ball where the 3B and SS can check the runner back. In my experience a R3 will more likely go on contact when/if the ball is hit to the right sid

I don't think I said anything about anyone having a good swing. What I said was, if a hitter goes up to the plate and is anticipating a dropball but I threw a rise instead, the hitter isn't likely to touch the ball. Conversely, if they look for the rise but I threw a drop, they will have equal trouble. I'm not sure where I referenced someone having a good swing.

Every pitch is situational and there are no absolutes here. If I'm playing a team who gets a R3 with 1 out, but the hitter coming up is a baseball guy, with a baseball swing, then (going by the percentages) that hitter isn't likely to hit my riseball. Even if everyone believes that the baseball/softball swings are the same, a hitter who isn't used to seeing a ball going up isn't likely to keep their hands high enough to hit the riseball. So, situationally, throwing a riseball there isn't a bad idea. If the hitter is a fastpitch veteran who is simply looking to hit a fly ball to score the run, then by the percentages, I'm better off throwing a dropball. And if he's a RHB, then change ups can be a good thing too since I don't want him hitting the ball to the right side of the field. On a change, he will likely pull the ball where the 3B and SS can check the runner back. In my experience a R3 will more likely go on contact when/if the ball is hit to the right side.

I don't think I said anything about anyone having a good swing. What I said was, if a hitter goes up to the plate and is anticipating a dropball but I threw a rise instead, the hitter isn't likely to touch the ball. Conversely, if they look for the rise but I threw a drop, they will have equal trouble. I'm not sure where I referenced someone having a good swing.

Every pitch is situational and there are no absolutes here. If I'm playing a team who gets a R3 with 1 out, but the hitter coming up is a baseball guy, with a baseball swing, then (going by the percentages) that hitter isn't likely to hit my riseball. Even if everyone believes that the baseball/softball swings are the same, a hitter who isn't used to seeing a ball going up isn't likely to keep their hands high enough to hit the riseball. So, situationally, throwing a riseball there isn't a bad idea. If the hitter is a fastpitch veteran who is simply looking to hit a fly ball to score the run, then by the percentages, I'm better off throwing a dropball. And if he's a RHB, then change ups can be a good thing too since I don't want him hitting the ball to the right side of the field. On a change, he will likely pull the ball where the 3B and SS can check the runner back. In my experience a R3 will more likely go on contact when/if the ball is hit to the right side.

I didn't explain it well enough, if expecting a drop, they should have a good swing on the pitch or at least better swing than if not expecting a drop.

 

[LEsoftballdad]

duh. I moved the decimal and made it 66.

same point, and hey, it's true for 10u!

Nope, still not correct. 60.5 - 35 = 25.5.

If you're going for 12U, then you're correct.

 

[DropcityUSA]

So taking the some of the guesswork out on what pitches work. Here is a study on what pitches are most thrown in college, broken down by Power 5 and mid-major, and what gets the highest whiff percentage broken down by speed, as well as location.