Two Seamers

[Ken B]

I counted five revs in Garcia's splitter. Would that fall into a knuckle realm?

 

[pobguy]

Sorry, I should have used "Reply With Quote", so you could figure out what I was responding to. I've now been through the entire thread. Let me sum up. I fully endorse what JJsqueeze has said. However, I will remark that for baseball, the kind of movement that we see on the Garcia pitch is very unusual. In fact, that is exactly why it attracted my (and Cross's) attention. It led to Cross doing some really cute experiments, then the two of us applying the results of those experiments to figure out why the Garcia pitch did what it did.

My knuckleball research is ongoing, although I haven't done much in the past year or so. My conclusions about "smoothness" of the trajectory are not generally accepted by people. But keep in mind that the analysis is based on actual tracking data, where the position of the ball is measured in its trajectory. As a physicist, I prefer to base conclusions on careful measurements rather than on perceptions. We all know that perceptions can be deceiving (just what color was that dress?).

 

[Doug Romrell]

We all know that perceptions can be deceiving (just what color was that dress?).

I ordered a white and gold dress, but they sent me a blue and black one.

 

[pobguy]

I counted five revs in Garcia's splitter. Would that fall into a knuckle realm?

No. Need <1 for knuckleball.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Sorry, you are wrong. There is no difference in movement between a 4 seam pitch and a 2 seam pitch.

There is a difference in the batters perception. The difference is perceptual psychology, not physics.

Gotta guy from Illinois says your wrong...

I am the aforementioned Nathan. Rod Cross is an Aussi and probably not following this thread. While "conventional" explanations would agree with what you say, the Garcia splitter moves in the opposite direction. The analysis the Cross and I did (more or less independently, although we talk with each other a lot) attributes the "wrong direction movement" to the seam orientation. The arm side of the ball is smoother than the glove side (i.e., the glove side is rougher, on average), and the pitch ended up breaking to the glove side. BTW, the direction of the movement is actually measured, using the PITCHf/x system. So it is not an issue of perception. If you go to my web site, Baseball Aerodynamics, and scroll down, you will find additional stuff about this and similar pitches.

That's the guy from Illinois

 

[Perfect Circle]

I still remember this

 

[Perfect Circle]

And this....

 

[JJsqueeze]

No. Need <1 for knuckleball.

glad you are participating in this Dr. I frequent your site and Dr. Cross' looking for tidbits of fun facts. The accessibility to experts on this site continues to blow me away.

 

[Perfect Circle]

glad you are participating in this. The accessibility to experts on this site continues to blow me away.

Thx

 

[corlay]

I counted five revs in Garcia's splitter. Would that fall into a knuckle realm?

great eye Ken!

i was wondering similar.

with most accomplished fastpichers averaging 18-20 revs (or more) on a fastball, i wonder how that impacts the "movement physics" of a 2-seamer?

we think of revs=movement in fastpitch.
is that a universal truth?