Two Seamers

[Perfect Circle]

Too Cold to go dig out all the 11" balls

 

[sluggers]

The whole gist of the article is that with a two seam orientation, the rough v smooth surface can be achieved far better than a 4 seam pitch by slightly tilting the axis of rotation.

???

But, the article doesn't say that. The article discussing a split finger fastball, not a 2S fastball. All it says is that split finger pitch is thrown with a 2S orientation. It never concludes that the 2S orientation is better than a 4S orientation.

The article discusses a pitch thrown by Freddie Garcia. Nathan says that the axis of rotation of the pitch causes one side of the ball to be "smoother" than the other. The article describes the spin axis as "is horizontal (backspin) and tilted slightly in the forward direction." The movement of the ball is caused by the crazy orientation of the axis.

Or put another way, does a knuckleball have movement? if so then why? It isn't spin, it is the pressure gradient caused by a smooth vs rough surface to the wind.

Knuckleballs are a whole different animal because they spin very little. If there is little spin, then the seams act like slowly oscillating rudders making the ball go up and down and left and right.

 

[Greenmonsters]

???

But, the article doesn't say that. The article discussing a split finger fastball, not a 2S fastball. All it says is that split finger pitch is thrown with a 2S orientation. It never concludes that the 2S orientation is better than a 4S orientation.

The article discusses a pitch thrown by Freddie Garcia. Nathan says that the axis of rotation of the pitch causes one side of the ball to be "smoother" than the other. The article describes the spin axis as "is horizontal (backspin) and tilted slightly in the forward direction." The movement of the ball is caused by the crazy orientation of the axis.




Knuckleballs are a whole different animal because they spin very little. If there is little spin, then the seams act like slowly oscillating rudders making the ball go up and down and left and right.

Pitch-track software and hi-frame rate video document that 99.9% of knuckleballs 'move' or break smoothly (versus dart and dance) every time, just like a curve ball except that the direction of movement or curve varies every pitch. The 0.1% anomaly is the rare Dickey knuckler that actually does change the direction of break midflight.

 

[Ken B]

 

[sluggers]

Pitch-track software and hi-frame rate video document that 99.9% of knuckleballs 'move' or break smoothly

Where is the documentation? Where did you read it?

Of course, all motion is continuous except in quantum mechanics. I'm not sure what your point it.

 

[JJsqueeze]

???

But, the article doesn't say that. The article discussing a split finger fastball, not a 2S fastball. All it says is that split finger pitch is thrown with a 2S orientation. It never concludes that the 2S orientation is better than a 4S orientation.

The article discusses a pitch thrown by Freddie Garcia. Nathan says that the axis of rotation of the pitch causes one side of the ball to be "smoother" than the other. The article describes the spin axis as "is horizontal (backspin) and tilted slightly in the forward direction." The movement of the ball is caused by the crazy orientation of the axis.




Knuckleballs are a whole different animal because they spin very little. If there is little spin, then the seams act like slowly oscillating rudders making the ball go up and down and left and right.

Now that you accept that the rough v smooth variance can cause a gradient that will cause a pitch to move, try to grip a ball like you are going to pitch a 4 seam dropball. You will notice that there is no way to orient it that will get a big bald spot flying in the wind. Now grip it like you are throwing a 2 seam dropball and you will see that there is a whole lot of smooth real estate you can get winward simply by leading with the pinky in the standard I/R fastball fashion.

So while the article does not discuss 2 seam vs 4 seam, the orientations it discusses really are only achievable with 2 seam grips. Another way of thinking of this is MAGNUS CURVE vs. SURFACE VARIANCE CURVE (for lack of a better term). Magnus curve is most powerful when a ball is spinning with the greatest amount of seams digging into the wind as possible (4 seams rotating fast). SURFACE VARIANCE CURVE IS greatest when the maximum amount of difference in surface smoothness is seen between the two sides of the ball (throwing the ball in a two seam fashion with spin a non factor). This is why a knuckleball curves, this is why a two seam pitch thrown correctly curves. This is why the the mystery pitch (that could only be thrown as a two seamer) curved.


mystery pitch

 

[WaSpeed02]

I have been wanting to try two seam pitches for a while. We experimented with them a while back but DD was uncomfortable with them and they caused her to lose a good amount of speed so we tabled it. Yesterday i got a wild hair and I searched the forum on Two seam pitches and found a lot of misinformation. The two seam pitches do not move because of spin, they move because of a pressure gradient caused by one side of the ball being relatively smooth while the other side is rough because the seams are to the wind. The ball will break in the direction of the seams.

For those of you that have DDs that can throw a 4 seamer with the slightly off axis 12-6 rotation, have her throw the same pitch as a two seamer and see if it cuts in. The physics at work here is the same as what occurs in swing bowling in cricket. It is also the same thing that makes knuckleballs move and why some describe two seamers as being unpredictable...
[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t-3jnOIJg4k[/video]

Try it and see what you get.

We tried it yesterday and had some very good results for a first effort, got balls to break in and out. DD was really having fun with them this time.

I am sure there are folks (Riseball) who have DDs using this pitch at a high level. Please chime in so we get the benefit of your experience seeing it used live.

Absolutely it does. My DD uses a 2 seam pitch we call a "cutter" that is a pretty good pitch to use when she's ahead in the count against a RHB. She's a lefty so it looks like it's going to be a dropball that's hittable, but does not have the same trajectory as her normal drop and is approx. 2-3 MPH slower. I can't figure out why it's not as fast, but I'm guessing it has to do with the forearm angle she takes to spin it. She releases inside the ball, trying to make the ball move down and away from a RHB. Makes a lot of girls swing and miss. The only problem with it is that it has a tendency to hang fat and get hit, which bugs the crap out of me when she's way ahead in the count.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Where is the documentation? Where did you read it?

Of course, all motion is continuous except in quantum mechanics. I'm not sure what your point it.

POBguy's site has/has links to several knuckleball studies. "smooth" trajectory i.e., no sudden or sharp break, no jump, hop, or dance!

 

[ddtimes4]

Good thread. DD has figured out a way to consistently make a 2 seamer break sharply outside. Its never just flat. It is usually about 3 mph slower than the 4 though. Its a mystery to me. DD does have long fingers though.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Good thread. DD has figured out a way to consistently make a 2 seamer break sharply outside. Its never just flat. It is usually about 3 mph slower than the 4 though. Its a mystery to me. DD does have long fingers though.

Mystery might be that the ball is traveling futher w/ breakin path.... ?