- Oct 25, 2009
- 3,335
- 48
Sounds very similar to hitting a weight bag. Those that swing too much with their arms are very uncomfortable. They think it's the bag, not their swing.
Reverse Chaining/ Backwards Chaining
- Thread starter Justanotherdad
- Start date
Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch
Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.
Sounds very similar to hitting a weight bag. Those that swing too much with their arms are very uncomfortable. They think it's the bag, not their swing.
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
Dbias ....
Personally, the feel you described of staying connected at contact with an axe, is the feel I have when swinging a heavier bat. Can't stress enough the value of the hips moving forward as the hands load rearward in prep to make a 'throw' ... big difference in terms of 'hand speed' when the hips are moving forward ... as opposed to the hips shifting rearward, or coiling stationary, as the hands are loaded.
Personally, the feel you described of staying connected at contact with an axe, is the feel I have when swinging a heavier bat. Can't stress enough the value of the hips moving forward as the hands load rearward in prep to make a 'throw' ... big difference in terms of 'hand speed' when the hips are moving forward ... as opposed to the hips shifting rearward, or coiling stationary, as the hands are loaded.
- Feb 17, 2011
- 201
- 16
Good axe video. Looks like you could put a bat or golf club in his hands and get a decent result with that windup and hip motion. My DD swings a 33/25 bat and ever since she went heavier I feel her swing has improved. With a -10 bat she hit the fence numerous times, went -9 and she hit her first homerun within that week. A few months later we gambled and went -8 Xeno and wow what a difference. She hit four homeruns in one game off of slower pitching, which has always been her weakness, but still has enough bat speed to turn it for faster pitching. Two weeks ago she she started playing up in 18u as a 15. Through her first nine games she only struck out one time.
Anyway the thought of going with a heavier bat occurred to me during one of her hitting lessons while she was using a very heavy wooden bat in drills trying to work on her slight tendency to cast her hands out a bit too much in the initial unloading of the hands forward. With the heavy bat in hand I feel she naturally knew that keeping her hands in tighter and rear elbow connected would get her around quicker to the ball. We have talked of another "sport" ice skating which she realizes to spin fast the arms and other leg must come closer to the core line of rotation in order to spin faster. She also offered up another example from back in her national championship cheerleading days of how rotation for double downs and her backhandspring tucks was easier if she stayed "tight".
The axe thing I saw mentioned somewhere else and got immediate results off of it wherever it was shown. I am a city firefighter and get a lot of axe time and training lol. Believe it or not our axes are not sharpened like a lumber jacks axe is. The cutting edge of a fire axe has a more rounded profile going out to the cutting edge so as to help us pull the axe out of the door or roof we have flung it into.
Anyway the thought of going with a heavier bat occurred to me during one of her hitting lessons while she was using a very heavy wooden bat in drills trying to work on her slight tendency to cast her hands out a bit too much in the initial unloading of the hands forward. With the heavy bat in hand I feel she naturally knew that keeping her hands in tighter and rear elbow connected would get her around quicker to the ball. We have talked of another "sport" ice skating which she realizes to spin fast the arms and other leg must come closer to the core line of rotation in order to spin faster. She also offered up another example from back in her national championship cheerleading days of how rotation for double downs and her backhandspring tucks was easier if she stayed "tight".
The axe thing I saw mentioned somewhere else and got immediate results off of it wherever it was shown. I am a city firefighter and get a lot of axe time and training lol. Believe it or not our axes are not sharpened like a lumber jacks axe is. The cutting edge of a fire axe has a more rounded profile going out to the cutting edge so as to help us pull the axe out of the door or roof we have flung it into.
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
Dbias ... found your description interesting of using a heavy bat and having more of a natural tendency to keep the hands in tighter and not cast. For me, it helps encourage an 'inside/out' swing ... something common in the better baseball, softball and golf swings.
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
Dbias … I gave a weighted bat lesson to a 14yo this morning.
Kid normally swings a 32-in 22-oz bat. They conducted almost the entire hitting session with a 33-in 28-oz bat … only used their normal bat towards the end of the session, when transferring feel from the heavier bat to their normal bat.
A few days earlier the kid struggled something fierce. Struck out repeatedly ... again and again. Kid couldn't have hit to save her life ... was using an over aggressive “army” swing.
After the drill session introducing why we use a heavy bat, how the lower body is used to generate an inside/out swing, and the timing mechanics relative to a throw … the kid hit line-drive after line-drive … with a 33-in 28-oz bat … didn’t even flinch with the pitching machine set at 64mph.
Only took a few iterations to transfer the feel to her normal bat.
The kid is now sold big time on the benefits of training with a heavy bat.
Kid normally swings a 32-in 22-oz bat. They conducted almost the entire hitting session with a 33-in 28-oz bat … only used their normal bat towards the end of the session, when transferring feel from the heavier bat to their normal bat.
A few days earlier the kid struggled something fierce. Struck out repeatedly ... again and again. Kid couldn't have hit to save her life ... was using an over aggressive “army” swing.
After the drill session introducing why we use a heavy bat, how the lower body is used to generate an inside/out swing, and the timing mechanics relative to a throw … the kid hit line-drive after line-drive … with a 33-in 28-oz bat … didn’t even flinch with the pitching machine set at 64mph.
Only took a few iterations to transfer the feel to her normal bat.
The kid is now sold big time on the benefits of training with a heavy bat.
- Feb 17, 2011
- 201
- 16
Yes inside out is one of the things batting coach talks of constantly and being connected and palm up/palm down at impact. When DD was casting she tended to hit the outside of the ball pulling a ton of them foul. A lot of work has been done lately with a short handled bat using only one hand at a time and this really seems to reinforce connection also.
I think adding weight exposes bad form/mechanics. Just like lifting boxes off of the floor, a person can use bad form lifting light boxes all day long bit run into a heavy box and it's make an appointment with the chiropractor.
I also think the use of -12 drop bats is the same thing. There is usually something wrong IMO if a player has to have a substantially lighter bat in order to bring it around, either a bad army swing or indecision as to swing due to lack of having a good eye.
DD has always had a good eye at the plate and led her HS team last year as a freshman with an .859 OBP and also had all homeruns, and triples and doubles. DD is a flat out hitter and I caught hell on here for venting over HS coach not putting her in the batting lineup one game. I understand HS ball a lot better now and so does she lol. To her it is now time with friends and recognition among her peers. The boys on the baseball team call her "ace" or "yard" and that coupled with having her name announced over the intercom for another home run is what HS ball is about. She realizes her hard work in the past has gotten her a spot on this 18u exposure tourney team and that in her mind is what is important.
I think adding weight exposes bad form/mechanics. Just like lifting boxes off of the floor, a person can use bad form lifting light boxes all day long bit run into a heavy box and it's make an appointment with the chiropractor.
I also think the use of -12 drop bats is the same thing. There is usually something wrong IMO if a player has to have a substantially lighter bat in order to bring it around, either a bad army swing or indecision as to swing due to lack of having a good eye.
DD has always had a good eye at the plate and led her HS team last year as a freshman with an .859 OBP and also had all homeruns, and triples and doubles. DD is a flat out hitter and I caught hell on here for venting over HS coach not putting her in the batting lineup one game. I understand HS ball a lot better now and so does she lol. To her it is now time with friends and recognition among her peers. The boys on the baseball team call her "ace" or "yard" and that coupled with having her name announced over the intercom for another home run is what HS ball is about. She realizes her hard work in the past has gotten her a spot on this 18u exposure tourney team and that in her mind is what is important.
Last edited:
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
The kid I had in the cages this morning, working with a heavier bat, was only 5'-2" & 115lbs ... and yet the extra 1-in and 6-oz didn't phase her ... ... ... such is the benefit of using your body appropriately.
Here is a description of what you are describing from a golfing perspective ... same idea as it relates to the baseball/softball swing.
Here is a description of what you are describing from a golfing perspective ... same idea as it relates to the baseball/softball swing.
- Sep 29, 2010
- 165
- 0
How stupid of me to want to talk about backward chaining. As per normal on this forum, by page 3, FFS takes over a thread and goes on and on about material irrelevant to the original topic.
If you guys want to talk about heavy bats and "feel" and "underhood actions" and throw, etc, who am I to stop you. I am done with this place. All the good posters have been chased off anyway.
If you guys want to talk about heavy bats and "feel" and "underhood actions" and throw, etc, who am I to stop you. I am done with this place. All the good posters have been chased off anyway.
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
It’s okay Justanotherdad … nothing evil was taking place in this thread. You presented a good topic and there was some healthy follow-up discussion on it. Your curt comment of “clear enough” may not have been received as being overly inviting of further input, but then again, you yourself commented that you couldn’t find much material on the subject matter … so perhaps there wasn’t much to offer beyond personal usage and experience.
The reality is that if the swing starts off improperly, using a poor sequence, then it’s pretty tough to build a high quality swing around such a foundation … it doesn’t really matter if one finishes at an ideal follow-through position, or has their swing pass through an ideal contact position. There is huge value in the sequence used, … and little can be done to overcome a poor sequence. Simply put, swing positions alone are not sufficient to overcome the use of a faulty sequence.
If you follow the thread, you’ll see that Dbias simply spoke of using reverse chaining, along with swing clips … and he added the value of making a connected swing and how he felt such a swing when swinging an axe. The natural progression, at least for me anyway, is that a very similar feel can be obtained when swinging a heavier bat. In other words, Dbias is suggesting that a goal of downstream positions is fine, as long as the swing gets started off on the right foot.
The reality is that if the swing starts off improperly, using a poor sequence, then it’s pretty tough to build a high quality swing around such a foundation … it doesn’t really matter if one finishes at an ideal follow-through position, or has their swing pass through an ideal contact position. There is huge value in the sequence used, … and little can be done to overcome a poor sequence. Simply put, swing positions alone are not sufficient to overcome the use of a faulty sequence.
If you follow the thread, you’ll see that Dbias simply spoke of using reverse chaining, along with swing clips … and he added the value of making a connected swing and how he felt such a swing when swinging an axe. The natural progression, at least for me anyway, is that a very similar feel can be obtained when swinging a heavier bat. In other words, Dbias is suggesting that a goal of downstream positions is fine, as long as the swing gets started off on the right foot.
- Oct 25, 2009
- 3,335
- 48
There may be positives for reverse chaining for some. If you start at the end of follow through and go backward to point of contact you might, for example, ask yourself "how did I get from here to there?" There are many questions that could be asked at just this segment. That could help in learning. Expand that logic to all the other points along the swing and it may be a very useful tool indeed.
When we reverse our swing during our slow motion swing drill this is the very reason we do it; to reinforce learning. We're never going to swing that way in the game, but it certainly may help a kid understand their swing. And it's entirely possible that it may speed up the process.
When we reverse our swing during our slow motion swing drill this is the very reason we do it; to reinforce learning. We're never going to swing that way in the game, but it certainly may help a kid understand their swing. And it's entirely possible that it may speed up the process.
Similar threads
