How good are the MLB Pros staticstically ?

Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch

Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.

Hitter

Banned
Dec 6, 2009
651
0
From the net..."In modern times, a season batting average higher than .300 is considered to be excellent, and an average higher than .400 a nearly unachievable goal. The last player to do so, with enough plate appearances to qualify for the batting championship, was Ted Williams of the Boston Red Sox, who hit .406 in 1941, though the best modern players either threaten to or actually do achieve it occasionally, if only for brief periods of time."

"Ty Cobb holds the record for highest career batting average with .367, 9 points higher than Rogers Hornsby who has the second highest average in history at .358. The record for lowest career batting average for a player with more than 2,500 at-bats belongs to Bill Bergen, a catcher who played from 1901 to 1911 and recorded a .170 average in 3,028 career at-bats. The modern-era record for highest batting average for a season is held by Napoleon Lajoie, who hit .426 in 1901, the first year of play for the American League. The modern-era record for lowest batting average for a player that qualified for the batting title is held by Rob Deer, who hit .179 in 1991. The highest batting average for a rookie was .408 in 1908 by Shoeless Joe Jackson."

"For non-pitchers, a batting average below .230 is often considered poor, and one below .200 is completely unacceptable. This latter level is known as "The Mendoza Line", named for Mario Mendoza, a stellar defensive shortstop who hit .215 during his Major League career. The league batting average in Major League Baseball for 2004 was just higher than .266, and the all-time league average is between .260 and .275."

So with all of our good information from a softball site why aren't the guys from the baseball sites having anymore of an affect on the hitting skills for the MLB ELITE SWINGS?

We can point out any flaw we see in a video however we may be lacking in exactly how to go about getting them to listen to us!

The MLB guys must not be listening to the good advice they are getting from these boards and the hitting instructors should all be fired for not doing a better job they are doing or have done over the years!

The data if that means anything over video, would suggest video alone has not made many improvements by it self when you look at the data.

That is not a debate, however it would suggest even if you see the flaw, count the frames and pontificate what works, they still are not listening and watching the video's to make improvements.

To my knowledge Bustos is the only player to have averaged over .400 in her 10 year career which may put her in a league all alone with the females kind of like TSW.

A final thought from the net..."The athletes also spoke about the quality of their coaches’ teaching methods. Specifically, they emphasized how their coaches paid “great attention to the little details” (p13). These coaches had the ability to “pull out the finer things when teaching a player” (p14), and instructions were specific. They did not tell their players to “just get it done” (p1). Instead, they explained exactly how to get it done [2, 3, 8]. The athletes also mentioned how their coaches simplified the process. One athlete explained how his coach “always found a way to break things down to the most simplistic sense” (p15). "

"Another athlete said that his coach sometimes had players practice their skills in slow motion. In general, training sessions were designed so that there was a progression from simple to complex: “You would start out small and go big and he would build on his teachings. When we moved from simple to complex, the purpose of the drill was not lost. The same theme ran through each progression” (p12).These athletes’ comments suggest that great coaches pace their instruction according to each athlete’s learning curve."

Just something to think about when teaching or coaching at any level in my opinion....


Thanks Howard
 
Last edited:
Feb 16, 2010
454
0
Nashua, NH
From the net:

National Pro Fastpitch Batting Average Leaders from 2004-2007

Years Player AB Avg.
1 2005-2007 Kretschman, Kelly 226 0.350
2 2004-2007 Zaleski, Kristen 598 0.349
3 2005-2006 Steffan, Anne 203 0.345
4 2004-2007 Wilkerson, Kellie 425 0.334
5 2005-2007 Galindo, Vicky 207 0.333
6 2004-2007 McMichael, Iyhia 577 0.333
7 2005-2007 Thompson, Nichole 392 0.332
8 2005-2007 Keohohou, Oli 337 0.323
9 2005-2007 Hughes, LaDonia 344 0.320
10 2005-2007 Clark, Jaime 302 0.305
11 2004-2005 Bauer, Lauren 310 0.303
12 2006-2007 May, Stacy 228 0.298
13 2005-2007 Spencer, Chelsea 332 0.289
14 2005-2007 Merchant, Jessica 279 0.283
15 2006-2007 Morris, Catalina 203 0.281
16 2004-2007 Burnum, Clare 459 0.277
17 2005-2006 Mascarenas, Toni 271 0.273
18 2004-2007 Trimboli, Nicole 562 0.272
19 2004-2007 Angus, Lyndsey 566 0.267
20 2004-2007 Peel, Trena 474 0.266


Should the fastpitch coaches be fired too? Seems like hitting .300 is pretty good here too... and what Bustos accomplished was truly off the charts.
 
Oct 28, 2009
52
6
So with all of our good information from a softball site why aren't the guys from the baseball sites having anymore of an affect on the hitting skills for the MLB ELITE SWINGS?

We can point out any flaw we see in a video however we may be lacking in exactly how to go about getting them to listen to us!

The MLB guys must not be listening to the good advice they are getting from these boards and the hitting instructors should all be fired for not doing a better job they are doing or have done over the years!

The data if that means anything over video, would suggest video alone has not made many improvements by it self when you look at the data.

Interesting. Thanks. I am not in agreement with the conclusion of the first half of the post. As for the second half, I am benefiting from posts from you, Tewks and others, where the posts deal with approaches to passing information to the athletes. A good hitting coach needs to understand proper mechanics and needs a system for working with the athletes in teaching those mechanics. Until recently, my focus has been too heavily on the mechanics. Becoming “book smart” is the easy part.

But a comparison of baseball hitting stats is misleading. Watching games as far back as the 1950s on the MLB station shows how far pitchers have advanced. The split fingered fastballs that so many modern day pitchers have mastered look unhittable. Ty Cobb never faced pitchers who had movement similar to that of mediocre pitchers of today. Pitching has come a long way and pitching coaches are also using video analysis.
 
Last edited:

Bucketpapi

Banned
May 28, 2008
38
0
From the net..."In modern times, a season batting average higher than .300 is considered to be excellent, and an average higher than .400 a nearly unachievable goal. The last player to do so, with enough plate appearances to qualify for the batting championship, was Ted Williams of the Boston Red Sox, who hit .406 in 1941, though the best modern players either threaten to or actually do achieve it occasionally, if only for brief periods of time."

"Ty Cobb holds the record for highest career batting average with .367, 9 points higher than Rogers Hornsby who has the second highest average in history at .358. The record for lowest career batting average for a player with more than 2,500 at-bats belongs to Bill Bergen, a catcher who played from 1901 to 1911 and recorded a .170 average in 3,028 career at-bats. The modern-era record for highest batting average for a season is held by Napoleon Lajoie, who hit .426 in 1901, the first year of play for the American League. The modern-era record for lowest batting average for a player that qualified for the batting title is held by Rob Deer, who hit .179 in 1991. The highest batting average for a rookie was .408 in 1908 by Shoeless Joe Jackson."

"For non-pitchers, a batting average below .230 is often considered poor, and one below .200 is completely unacceptable. This latter level is known as "The Mendoza Line", named for Mario Mendoza, a stellar defensive shortstop who hit .215 during his Major League career. The league batting average in Major League Baseball for 2004 was just higher than .266, and the all-time league average is between .260 and .275."

So with all of our good information from a softball site why aren't the guys from the baseball sites having anymore of an affect on the hitting skills for the MLB ELITE SWINGS?

We can point out any flaw we see in a video however we may be lacking in exactly how to go about getting them to listen to us!

The MLB guys must not be listening to the good advice they are getting from these boards and the hitting instructors should all be fired for not doing a better job they are doing or have done over the years!

The data if that means anything over video, would suggest video alone has not made many improvements by it self when you look at the data.

That is not a debate, however it would suggest even if you see the flaw, count the frames and pontificate what works, they still are not listening and watching the video's to make improvements.

To my knowledge Bustos is the only player to have averaged over .400 in her 10 year career which may put her in a league all alone with the females kind of like TSW.

A final thought from the net..."The athletes also spoke about the quality of their coaches’ teaching methods. Specifically, they emphasized how their coaches paid “great attention to the little details” (p13). These coaches had the ability to “pull out the finer things when teaching a player” (p14), and instructions were specific. They did not tell their players to “just get it done” (p1). Instead, they explained exactly how to get it done [2, 3, 8]. The athletes also mentioned how their coaches simplified the process. One athlete explained how his coach “always found a way to break things down to the most simplistic sense” (p15). "

"Another athlete said that his coach sometimes had players practice their skills in slow motion. In general, training sessions were designed so that there was a progression from simple to complex: “You would start out small and go big and he would build on his teachings. When we moved from simple to complex, the purpose of the drill was not lost. The same theme ran through each progression” (p12).These athletes’ comments suggest that great coaches pace their instruction according to each athlete’s learning curve."

Just something to think about when teaching or coaching at any level in my opinion....


Thanks Howard

The late Stephen J. Gould answers your "question" in detail.
It is rooted in the number of participants coupled with in increase in the level of play.
But we know your not really interested in that, but rather, prolonging the infamous closed thread debate.
If you truly don't care what others think regarding your teaching methods, why do you continue to argue the point?

Just in case you are truly seeking an answer to your question, here you go:

Stephen Jay Gould | Mother Jones

Gould,Stephen Jay.Triumph and Tragedy in Mudville: A Lifelong Passion for
Baseball.New York: Norton,2003.
“Seventh Inning Stretch: Baseball,Father,and Me.”25-34.
“Mickey Mantle: The Man versus the Myth.”87-96.
“Left Holding the Bat.”143-150.
“Streetball from a New York City Boyhood.”37-46.
“The Babe’s Final Strike.”47-49.
“Freud at the Ballpark.”76-79.
“The Best of Times,Almost.”50-53.
“Why No One Hits .400 Anymore.”151-172.
“The Creation Myths of Cooperstown.”190-204.
“The Streak of Streaks.”173-187.
Gross,Paul M.“The Apotheosis of Stephen Jay Gould.”The New Criterion.
Oct.2002.77-81.
 

Hitter

Banned
Dec 6, 2009
651
0
Bucketpapi said,"The late Stephen J. Gould answers your "question" in detail.
It is rooted in the number of participants coupled with in increase in the level of play.
But we know your not really interested in that, but rather, prolonging the infamous closed thread debate.
If you truly don't care what others think regarding your teaching methods, why do you continue to argue the point?

Good article!

My point was with all the information out there on what is correct and incorrect, you would have thought the skill levels would have kicked the averages up a little more and all the MLB players would have improved as we are counting frames, reviewing video and can see where the improvements must be made.

Remember most males have 4 years of college plus minor league training to make them better so why hasn't the average been changed much?

For example if Tony Gwyn is / was so good, why is he not the poster child for the MLB Elite swing pattern?

We have the girls starting at 10, 11,12 and 13 and travel ball , high school and college and how and what we do with them seems to not be relevant when we always come back to the same issue is pattern their swings to be just like the MLB player. If you can not change the average then what is it in the process that makes the data not relevant?

Maybe just maybe there might be a better way to teach what it is we are doing or presenting the information differently as there sure seems to be a difference when you see the college coaches winning several championships verses some never winning at all.

I see it in the Midwest when college coaches are still stuck in the swing down and level to the ball and could improve however choose not to improve and you see coaches at other colleges having success? Why do you think that is in today's environment?

Is it the pitchers making the difference or the hitting making the difference?

What is it about taking from MLB THE pattern, that produces the .266 average, that seems not to be able to be communicated to the females so they can be as good at their swing pattern?

Are we not communicating THE PATTERN correctly?

Should we change how and what we are teaching to get the girls on a fast track of learning or just say well, statistically that is good enough for them?

This has nothing to do with the closed thread....I deal with data not rhetorical innuendos and I use a process that works well for me. I am trying to shift the average!

Thanks Howard
 

Ken Krause

Administrator
Admin
May 7, 2008
3,914
113
Mundelein, IL
But a comparison of baseball hitting stats is misleading. Watching games as far back as the 1950s on the MLB station shows how far pitchers have advanced. The split fingered fastballs that so many modern day pitchers have mastered look unhittable. Ty Cobb never faced pitchers who had movement similar to that of mediocre pitchers of today. Pitching has come a long way and pitching coaches are also using video analysis.

I'd buy the pitching argument more if it wasn't for the fact that many hitters from 14U up are also facing pitchers who can make the ball move not in just one or two directions but in many directions. And many are facing reaction times that their male counterparts probably won't face for a few more years, if at all.

Hitting and pitching at the MLB level have both improved over the last 20-30 years. You would think that hitting would have advanced more than it has. Even if pitchers are throwing the splitfinger fastball, they're not throwing it on every pitch. And all MLB teams these days have geeks who comb through the stats to pick up patterns and give hitters some idea of what the pitcher will do.

I see Howard's core point -- there's more to it than just looking at what the hitters are doing. Actually, I think a better use of time might be to see what they're not doing but maybe should be doing to raise those averages. If it worked in MLB, it would probably work in our sport too.
 

Hitter

Banned
Dec 6, 2009
651
0
Interesting. Thanks. I am not in agreement with the conclusion of the first half of the post. As for the second half, I am benefiting from posts from you, Tewks and others, where the posts deal with approaches to passing information to the athletes. A good hitting coach needs to understand proper mechanics and needs a system for working with the athletes in teaching those mechanics. Until recently, my focus has been too heavily on the mechanics. Becoming “book smart” is the easy part.

But a comparison of baseball hitting stats is misleading. Watching games as far back as the 1950s on the MLB station shows how far pitchers have advanced. The split fingered fastballs that so many modern day pitchers have mastered look unhittable. Ty Cobb never faced pitchers who had movement similar to that of mediocre pitchers of today. Pitching has come a long way and pitching coaches are also using video analysis.


Howard said, " How good are the MLB Pros staticstically ?

" From the net..."In modern times, a season batting average higher than .300 is considered to be excellent, and an average higher than .400 a nearly unachievable goal. The last player to do so, with enough plate appearances to qualify for the batting championship, was Ted Williams of the Boston Red Sox, who hit .406 in 1941, though the best modern players either threaten to or actually do achieve it occasionally, if only for brief periods of time."

Why for only brief times, why can they not sustain it more often?

From a process capability stand point why can they not make enough of a change to get the averages up higher. The balls are under control, the bats are under control, the fields are under control, the mounds are perfect, the walls are usually padded, more umpires for sure, allowed to use warm up bats, probably better training facilities, better fans to keep the dug out cooler or warmer, so there is a lot of process problems that are under better control than would be for anyone other than person than an MLB hitter.

Maybe the desire is not there after a 16 to 20 million dollar contract is inked because .300 is average and is OK!

It just appears with all the great baseball discussion boards there are they would have it figured out on how to raise the averages up from .266 as they seem to have found every flaw in the MLB Swing Pattern by counting frames and using video, so unless they are un willing to learn more, maybe the process has reached its limits that us mere amateurish people can give them, however we could agree we may be able to improve their golf game a little!

Look at it like it is a process and what affects the process of hitting mechanics?

Vision skills, eye hand coordination, timing and rhythm and grip, stance, distance from plate, depth in batter box, weight of bats have gotten lighter,hand path, balance and mental approach possibly.

Thanks Howard
 
Last edited:
Oct 19, 2009
1,822
0
My dad told me years ago that you should only take advise from people who are successful. I've attempted this with my daughter with her softball training we've attended Alabama, and Georgia hitting camps and most recently the Got Bustos camp. It seems no matter how well she does someone is trying to change her to their style of hitting. I believe a kid needs to hear one voice and one voice only. GA and AL teach basically the same swing and Bustos is like taking a step up to a higher level, all the swing mechanics are close to the same.

Then local coaches try and instill hands to the ball, swing down to the ball and other ideals. Although I tell her not to listen she can't seem to help her self. She starts thinking and the good swing is gone.

The other day she pitched 3 linings faced 9 batters the only ball that was touched was a foul back and ever pitch the coached yelled instructions. I finally had to tell the coach that I pay an instructor who has had about 40 kids that pitch D1 Ball and that he is confusing my daughter on her delivery, because what he is telling her is opposite from her coach.

As far as why we have not see an improvement in MLB averages, my opinion not enough quality coaches and a modern hitter faces more and frehers pitchers than the players from the past.

Hitter I have always admired Bustos for her hitting, the grace and power she exsudes I saw her take batting practice and play in Tennenesse and will always remember how empressed I was seeng her in person.
 
Jan 14, 2009
1,589
0
Atlanta, Georgia
I think this article from Epstein helps to explain the state of hitting in MLB today.

Rotational Hitting History

I don't see MLB as a straight progressive timeline where one generation builds on the next. Rather I see it as a series of different cycles where players adapt to the conditions of the day.

What we know for certain is that some of MLBs greatest hitters came out of the "Golden Era" between 1920 - 1975. IMO, many of the hitters from this era had outstanding mechanics. I've studied clips of Williams, Mays, Ruth, Aaron and Mantle, and it's amazing how similar their mechanics were. What's really astounding is that Mays and Aaron played their entire careers at less than 185 pounds.

IMO today's players are suffering from poor hitting instruction. This line from Epstein's article really got my attention:

"The biggest problem confronting today’s hitters is that the coaches and instructors are a product of this past generation. As a result, many teach what they learned when they played."

"Past Generation" as in the Linear hitting aluminum bat era of the 70's and 80's. I don't believe there are a lot of hitting instructors in MLB today from the "Golden Era". Instead we have hitting instructors like Pendleton of the Atlanta Braves. His career stats: Average 270 / SLG% 391 / HR 140 out of 7032 at bats. Need I say more?

IMO, modern day computer analysis software would be no match for having someone like Ted Williams watch my DD swing and give her suggestions on what she can do different to improve her swing. Emulation and mentoring is how they did it in the old days. It seemed to work pretty well.

I also believe that specialized pitchers like set up men and closers have helped to hold down the averages.
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
42,864
Messages
680,346
Members
21,538
Latest member
Corrie00
Top