Drive Questions about Model Pitchers and the legality of it

[STRIKE3]

I chose to start a new thread versus hijack another thread that was bumped up earlier tonight.

The thread is the following:

http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/25583-bring-body-arm-bi.html

Great thread and more great information from Java! Always spot on and priceless information!

With that said, it is timely (always seems timely) as I am focusing heavily on DD's drive. We have been drilling hard on the pushback drill and 2 step for years but more so in 2016. I think she has pretty decent mechanics but convinced she has more drive in her. The issue I have is that it is very difficult to get great drive with both feet in contact with the rubber. ***Let me state this another way, we can get much better drive and power when both feet do not have contact with the rubber. See the thread above, Tincher stride foot is WAY behind the rubber. NOT EVEN CLOSE. The Nebraska pitcher later in the thread does NOT have her stride leg in contact with the rubber either. I know we can post and point to Elite pitchers that do have contact with both feet but for everyone of those it seems like we see others who don't. Examples of those are Abbott, Ueno, etc. etc who take a step forward off the rubber.

It is obvious to me that their is an optimum distance for each pitcher of how far apart their feet are for the optimum drive. In other words, if you take the both feet on the rubber rule out of the equation for a second and just asked a girl to find the most comfortable stance for the best drive you would see she would look similar to Tincher. To take it further, I think depending on how tall the girl is the distance would be different. The taller the girl the greater distance between the feet to create that optimum comfort zone. Regardless of height, it would be much more than the 6" allowed for sure.

Not to go off subject too much but I ran a quick experiment over the weekend. I had my DD pitch with ASA rules and then with HS rules. I did not allow her to take a step back for HS rules but I did allow her to start with her stride foot back at whatever distance feels comfortable. We have not done this before and the closest thing we have done that compares is Java's drills. She did slide her drive foot on the rubber for both.

The results were an average of 4-5 mph more (roughly 10 pitches each way) with the HS pitching rules (very similar to Tincher in the thread). Truth is, DD eyes lit up after the HS way as she said I am moving way faster this way. She was.

Purpose of this post is probably more to express my frustration than anything else I guess as I see great model pitchers exceed the bounds of legal pitching. I do think they are great model pitchers without any question. I just struggle with the fact that if my DD did what they do she would be illegal. Of course, we could have the argument that she may or may not get called on it but I already know the answer to that.

Sorry for the rant and wondering if anyone else sees it like I do. Or better yet, can shine some light on it as I may be missing something on this which is always a high probability play.

S3

 

[Mad4Ball]

Thanks for the thread. i had to argue with a ump last night that my pitcher was legal sliding her drive foot across the front of the rubber. Sometimes I think pitching details are a mystery to almost everyone. Anyways enough of that rant.

My DD has done the the step back drill but doesn't believe it helps because she has to keep both feet on the rubber during a game and can't get the same feeling during her pitching. Now I might have missed something in my atrempt to teach Java's drill so I'll just shut up now and wait for the dfp experts' insights

 

[javasource]

It's always interesting to see someone's interpretation of a drill I use. It's obvious that many look at the pushback and jump back drills as simply 'taking a step back'. And although both can utilize that motion... the physical act of taking a step backward is not the point.

The point of those drills was to teach a kid to develop early forward momentum... and to teach them to use both legs.

What the step-back accomplishes is a simple center of gravity shift... but most importantly it staggers their feet enough so that they can learn to resist with the foot that is behind them.

I don't want to get into physics too much... but there is a huge difference between merely stepping back and pushing back.

This is quite evident if you watch a pitcher who is bent forward... and subsequently her hips will thrust forward. The hips won't thrust forward if the rear leg is not resisting against the ground. It is for this reason why I named one of the drills the pushback drill... it's not merely a name... it's an instruction. Meaning when your foot contacts the ground... push back. In that drill The Stride foot is the first to contact the ground... so therefore it must be the first one to resist or push back. You'll be rewarded by the ground exerting Force... and your body mass will Propel forward.

There are also two types of Staggering of the feet on the plate... horizontal and vertical. I tend to prefer the largest stagger legal on both... and absolutely require the largest vertical stagger possible. The plate gives you 6 inches of vertical stagger... and that should be used to its maximum. So when you step back illegally... you are creating a degree of vertical stagger greater than 6 inches. This makes it easier to feel the bodies new displacement... but if it's the only way you can feel it... then you're missing the whole point of that drill... which is to get a kid comfortable getting their nose out in front of their toes... and learning to push first with their stride leg in the form of resistance.

If you have access to sprinters starting blocks... I'd recommend the following experiment:

Adjust the blocks so that they are side by side with no vertical spacing... as this is most likely what your daughter is doing incorrectly on the plate. Tell her to Sprint with the blocks in that position.

Adjust the blocks so that they are vertically spaced 6 inches. Tell her to sprint out of this position by first applying effort with her back foot then her forward foot just like the push back drill.

Ask her which was more powerful and then ask her if a six-inch stagger allowed her to Sprint faster.

The blocks will really allow her to feel the resistance necessary 4 best forward effort... as she will apply Force rearward... and subsequently feel the blocks pushing her forward.

If when pitching she's too upright the body won't displace forward... and the forward resistance that the ground applies will be lessened. Making the transition to a six-inch legal Stagger requires that the athlete leans before they push back. Be sure this sequence exists and she understands the importance a forward lean... and her success will be much more evident... as well as the increase in speed.

Sorry for any typos I'm using my handheld and speech to text...

 

[Crystal Brown]

A quick question concerning the back foot…Where should it be placed in relations to the rubber? My daughter puts her front toe ON it…It seems to raise the front of her foot with the heel planted on the ground.Which it seems to be the opposite effects going for. Shouldn't the rear heel come off the ground upon pushing out? This has been a huge debate in my house with my husband…He says it doesn't matter if her foot is on or touching the rubber.


We are seeing the lean, but she comes out of it too soon…Her drive is still too far up but it has gotten a lot better than what it used to be.

 

[STRIKE3]

It's always interesting to see someone's interpretation of a drill I use. It's obvious that many look at the pushback and jump back drills as simply 'taking a step back'. And although both can utilize that motion... the physical act of taking a step backward is not the point.

The point of those drills was to teach a kid to develop early forward momentum... and to teach them to use both legs.

What the step-back accomplishes is a simple center of gravity shift... but most importantly it staggers their feet enough so that they can learn to resist with the foot that is behind them.

I don't want to get into physics too much... but there is a huge difference between merely stepping back and pushing back.

This is quite evident if you watch a pitcher who is bent forward... and subsequently her hips will thrust forward. The hips won't thrust forward if the rear leg is not resisting against the ground. It is for this reason why I named one of the drills the pushback drill... it's not merely a name... it's an instruction. Meaning when your foot contacts the ground... push back. In that drill The Stride foot is the first to contact the ground... so therefore it must be the first one to resist or push back. You'll be rewarded by the ground exerting Force... and your body mass will Propel forward.

There are also two types of Staggering of the feet on the plate... horizontal and vertical. I tend to prefer the largest stagger legal on both... and absolutely require the largest vertical stagger possible. The plate gives you 6 inches of vertical stagger... and that should be used to its maximum. So when you step back illegally... you are creating a degree of vertical stagger greater than 6 inches. This makes it easier to feel the bodies new displacement... but if it's the only way you can feel it... then you're missing the whole point of that drill... which is to get a kid comfortable getting their nose out in front of their toes... and learning to push first with their stride leg in the form of resistance.

If you have access to sprinters starting blocks... I'd recommend the following experiment:

Adjust the blocks so that they are side by side with no vertical spacing... as this is most likely what your daughter is doing incorrectly on the plate. Tell her to Sprint with the blocks in that position.

Adjust the blocks so that they are vertically spaced 6 inches. Tell her to sprint out of this position by first applying effort with her back foot then her forward foot just like the push back drill.

Ask her which was more powerful and then ask her if a six-inch stagger allowed her to Sprint faster.

The blocks will really allow her to feel the resistance necessary 4 best forward effort... as she will apply Force rearward... and subsequently feel the blocks pushing her forward.

If when pitching she's too upright the body won't displace forward... and the forward resistance that the ground applies will be lessened. Making the transition to a six-inch legal Stagger requires that the athlete leans before they push back. Be sure this sequence exists and she understands the importance a forward lean... and her success will be much more evident... as well as the increase in speed.

Sorry for any typos I'm using my handheld and speech to text...

Java,

Thanks for the post as always! I agree it is interesting to see the various interpretations that we take away from information online here at DFP. I am guilty as anyone and only by reading then re-reading things several times do I feel I fully understand what somebody is trying to say.

With that said, I want to clarify that this thread was not about simply taking a "step back" versus a "pushback". I understand what you are saying in the difference and I am sure I was not as clear in my post as to what I meant.

The purpose of the post was the DIFFERENCE in the width of the feet or stagger between what was legal and illegal and advantages of a greater stagger.

I think you said it best (and made my point) with the reference to the sprinter blocks:

1. Blocks side by side with no spacing versus 2. blocks vertically spaced with 6 inches (legal width). Which one is more powerful? #2.

My point is and using your reference............. 1.Blocks at 6 inches (legal width) versus 2. blocks at anything over 6 inches (12 inches or more it appears like TINCHER, NEBRASKA PITCHER, ABBOTT, UENO, ETC. ETC.)

Which one is more powerful? #2 wins yet again and completely goes to your point. The issue is of course anything over 6 inches is illegal.

Many (not all) but many great model pitchers are using sprinter blocks with vertical spacing greater than the legal 6 inches and that is just the way it is. It is up to you as a parent to decide what you should do or teach to your DD. Just my humble opinion.

 

[javasource]

Java,
Which one is more powerful? #2 wins yet again and completely goes to your point. The issue is of course anything over 6 inches is illegal.

Many (not all) but many great model pitchers are using sprinter blocks with vertical spacing greater than the legal 6 inches and that is just the way it is. It is up to you as a parent to decide what you should do or teach to your DD. Just my humble opinion.

I agree with you completely. My post had more to do with the question following yours. Interestingly... although some of those pitchers you mention are more than 6 inches... the most important thing to remember is that they are NOT afraid to be... meaning... they care more about maximizing the motion... and less about adhering to the rule. Might seem like an obvious statement... but this difference is pretty key. Are we shackling the development of our kid at this age... they've many years to hone in on these little nuances... but the time is NOW for developing a more powerful motion. I don't expect everyone to agree with this mindset I have... just the ones I work with...

A quick question concerning the back foot…Where should it be placed in relations to the rubber?

Assuming she's right-handed... as she takes the rubber... the tip of the right heel should be barely in contact with the front of the plate, and the tip of the left toe should barely be in contact with the back of the plate.

The effect that we are going for has more to do with the left shin angle... as this determines the direction of force (resistance) against the ground... and subsequently... the direction the athlete is assisted in by the return forces of the ground. I use the term "push with the rear leg first" loosely... what I'm interested in most is RESISTANCE... which results in the body getting "pushed" forward. Diagonal Resistance might be a better phrase...

 

[kaley1]

So wouldn't the tip of the "right" heel not take away some of the push against the plate?

 

[Crystal Brown]

I want to apologize to the OP for hijacking your thread…the issue my daughter is having is very similar…Her back foot is flat footed without taking full advantage of the pate…I see her pulling with the front foot….but we are still seeing too much up, not enough out movement…which Rick Pauly has mentioned before in our lesson. <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/WNY6SBsfWjc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[cuervo1800]

Assuming she's right-handed... as she takes the rubber... the tip of the right heel should be barely in contact with the front of the plate, and the tip of the left toe should barely be in contact with the back of the plate.

This brings up a question I've had lately... It seems this college season more than in the past, I'm noticing pitchers that start with push-foot-heel against rubber only. This means as they begin forward and get up to their toes, there is absolutely no foot in contact with the rubber and the pitcher is gaining the 6" of distance towards the batter. I thought the rule was contact to the rubber with the exception of the drag... Is not an illegal pitch to establish your plant and push off of the rubber? Just about like leaping / crow-hopping isn't it?

Thanks.

 

[STRIKE3]

I agree with you completely. My post had more to do with the question following yours. Interestingly... although some of those pitchers you mention are more than 6 inches... the most important thing to remember is that they are NOT afraid to be... meaning... they care more about maximizing the motion... and less about adhering to the rule. Might seem like an obvious statement... but this difference is pretty key. Are we shackling the development of our kid at this age... they've many years to hone in on these little nuances... but the time is NOW for developing a more powerful motion. I don't expect everyone to agree with this mindset I have... just the ones I work with...


Java, thank you for the reply and statement. I very much appreciate you saying the above as it has been a struggle for me in regards to what to teach DD. I made the decision literally just this week to "push the boundaries" a bit and focus on maximizing the motion. Exactly what you said above. THANK YOU!