Delaying play to run clock time off

[Dabears17]

I liked that about 4 years ago USA softball went to 80 minutes, finish the inning and play another, for championship play. They changed back to the 100 minutes, finish the inning this year. Dropped the play another inning. Wish they hadn't changed back to the old way.

 

[radness]

Plan ahead time is ticking.

 

[dbronstein]

Stalling isn't a style of play or a particular play that is part of competition. Stalling is avoiding playing the game. All the talk in softball about "managing the clock" is a bit ridiculous. These coaches aren't managing anything, they are just finding ways to not play softball. Compare it to football where refusing to start a play after a certain time draws a penalty. In basketball, there is a limited time to inbound the ball. If you fail to play the game, you are penalized. You aren't allowed to not play the game. The tactics being discussed in this thread aren't akin to a football team that has developed a strong running game to eat the clock. In softball, tying shoes or meeting at the mound to discuss nothing is our present equivalent of clock management. Our game should be better than that.

Exactly.

 

[radness]

Clock manipulation is always a part of any timed game. It's just that nobody pays attention until they feel they can blame the clock for their loss. "We want to control the ball." "We want to keep their defense on the field and wear them out." "We want to win the possession count." Clock manipulation or strategy?

Clock/Time manipulation is strategy!

Even without a clock
It is also controlling
'the pace of the game'
that can be quicker or slower and definitely can get in the heads of other teams.

Non-softball Example:
How many people get flustered when they're driving down the street and the person in front of them is going 5 to 10 miles slower than the rest of the speed of traffic.
Or
Driving down the street and the person behind you is within a car length of your bumper, no room for margin, bearing down on your tail end and stops really late.

Some teams will use up the entire 20 seconds to get the next pitch call in taking lots of time for each batter.
Other teams will go so fast it seems like they are quick pitching the batter.

Strategy is where games are won!
( not just the clock, strategy!)

 

[The Man In Blue]

Stalling isn't a style of play or a particular play that is part of competition. Stalling is avoiding playing the game. All the talk in softball about "managing the clock" is a bit ridiculous. These coaches aren't managing anything, they are just finding ways to not play softball. Compare it to football where refusing to start a play after a certain time draws a penalty. In basketball, there is a limited time to inbound the ball. If you fail to play the game, you are penalized. You aren't allowed to not play the game. The tactics being discussed in this thread aren't akin to a football team that has developed a strong running game to eat the clock. In softball, tying shoes or meeting at the mound to discuss nothing is our present equivalent of clock management. Our game should be better than that.

Having said that, I don't think any kind of play clock is practical. I'd have a shorter time limit and mandate that one full inning should be played after the expiration of the shorter time limit. You'd still have significant control of the overall time of the game and the incentive to stall would be almost eliminated since the other team got at least one more at bat after the clock ceased to matter. For example, if you want the games to be an hour and fifteen minutes, then the time limit is an hour and you play one inning after expiration of the time limit. I know some games might go unexpectedly long if an inning goes crazy, but you have that possibility now unless you are playing drop dead.

I'm not poking at you, I promise. I am trying to understand your thinking and possibly provide you with some education. It is possible that we are talking about the same thing, but it feels as if we are not. It seems you are talking about that final few minutes when people act concerned, while I am talking about the unnecessary delays throughout the entire game.

What rules do you think need to be added/changed?

What do you think of the catcher throwing down to second base once the pitcher has completed her warm ups? How about the team congregating around the pitcher after that? Nothing in the rulebook grants these actions.

Unscientific study on my part, but I started taking note this year. Did you know it takes an average of 2-3 minutes for a team to take the field following the plate meeting? The clock is running during that time.


Here is a sampling of rules from NFHS (these may or may not apply in other codes):

• The pitcher has 20 seconds from receiving the ball to release (not start) the pitch.
• The batter has 10 seconds from the pitcher receiving the ball to be in the box and ready (not just starting to get in the box).
• The batter is to keep one foot in the batter's box (with a few specific exceptions) while taking signs, warm-up swing, etc.
• The pitcher has ONE MINUTE to throw up to 5 warm up pitches. This time starts at the third out of the previous inning (not whenever she gets out there and puts herself together). This is not one minute to warm up and then another 90 seconds to throw the ball around, socialize, high five, and readjust all of her equipment.
• Once the umpire commands "Play!" (following a conference or stoppage of play) teams have 60 seconds to resume play.
• The defense has three conferences (in the standard 7 innings) that may be used AT ANY TIME. They receive one conference per inning in extra innings (the initial three do not carry over).
• The offense receives one conference per half-inning on offense. They are not cumulative.
• There is no prescribed time limit on a conference.

Note: Time limit games are not typically addressed in rulebooks. These are restrictions put in place by tournaments. While I am not a fan of a clock on the game, it is NECESSARY with tournaments. In fact, I believe tournaments need to do MORE to keep games on schedule.

 

[S Spiff]

I'm not poking at you, I promise. I am trying to understand your thinking and possibly provide you with some education.

On initial review, your response felt awfully condescending and pedantic so we will see how it goes.

As for whether we are talking about the same topic, the OP referenced shoe tying and a team meeting that ran 5 of the last 6 minutes left in the game off the clock. That is what I addressed and why I alluded to both of those things in both my prior posts. When time is wasted to avoid playing ball and run out the clock, it's bad sportsmanship. Unless I miss your references in #79, you are talking about non-softball strategies for clock management during play. I have no problem with that. I don't have a problem with a team walking a batter if it thinks running off the time is more important than the base runner. Frustrating for sure, but not what my post is addressing.

I don't believe throwing down to second or congregating around the pitcher after are delaying tactics or bad sportsmanship. Do you believe they are delaying tactics in the same category as the shoe tying and long meetings at the circle just because there is no permission granted for those things in the rulebook?

My gripe is absolutely about what happens near the end of the game to stop and avoid play while the clock runs out. My comments have not addressed generally maximizing time the ball is in play throughout the game. Suggestions like "plan ahead" or "take the field promptly" don't solve the rules issue. If the complaining team does all of those thing and maximizes the time the ball is in play and then the other team ties shoes to run 5 of the last 6 minutes off the clock, the rules problem I have still remains.

What rules do you think need to be added/changed?

In #79 you asked "[w]hat rules do you think are needed to 'prevent stalling'?", and in #80 I responded "I'd have a shorter time limit and mandate that one full inning should be played after the expiration of the shorter time limit [and so on]" in response. When I ask the same question of a person twice in quick succession without acknowledging his prior response, I am absolutely poking. If you are not poking, the more productive approach is to ask a follow-up question that explores the prior response of the person you are questioning. If you are sincere about not poking, my suggestion is that whenever you feel the need to add the disclaimer you consider rephrasing instead. It's not that hard.

I'm not in favor of any rule that asks an umpire to judge intent to delay. I don't want kids to have to play with their shoes untied. It isn't about batters keeping one foot in the box. One one hand, many of the actions that constitute bad stalling tactics can be legit in the game in other circumstances, but everyone watching knows when it is happening. The rule I suggested is intended to take away most of the incentive to stall. Not perfect, but better than what we have now most of the time.

You are of course completely correct that time limits are not typically addressed in rulebooks. In fact, I suspect that this is a big part of the problem. Those who think most thoughtfully about the rules of the game (preparing the rule book in committee) do not address this aspect of the game. Instead, tournament directors implement a time limit with no other change to the rules. That's how we end up with a timed game with no rules that require putting the ball in play.

Did you know it takes an average of 2-3 minutes for a team to take the field following the plate meeting? The clock is running during that time.

I think your average is on the high side. I have videotaped and edited almost ten years of games watching the clock while I do. Two minutes is pretty accurate but three is unusual and I'd guess way too high to be an average. My own unscientific review of the last six games I videotaped show an outlier of only 50 seconds from plate meeting to first pitch of the game. The rest of the games were within 10 seconds either way of two minutes. These observations from us both are interesting, but not on topic. One team still shouldn't be able to stop the game from going another inning by simply refusing to put the ball in play. If some one takes three minutes to take the field, I'll agree with you that is too long, but it isn't the same issue as delay tactics at the end of the game to avoid playing another inning.

I completely understand your perspective about wishing the games were more on schedule. You have no investment in the outcome of any particular game. It is more than fair for you to expect to have a reasonable idea when your games will start and end. Team perspective is different. Having travelled a significant distance and devoted an entire weekend or a week to a tournament, playing a satisfying game is more important to me than whether the field is running 30 minutes ahead or behind. It's always about balancing being on time with making a good game. The stalling described in this thread doesn't strike me as good for that balance.

Not poking, but what part of your post do you believe will provide me with some education? You shouldn't assume I don't know the rules of the game just because you disagree with or can't understand my point of view. I happen to like rules. None of the rules you mention would curtail the delay tactics mentioned by the OP. That is intrinsic to my point.

 

[radness]

I completely understand your perspective about wishing the games were more on schedule. You have no investment in the outcome of any particular game. It is more than fair for you to expect to have a reasonable idea when your games will start and end.

Think everybody at the tournaments/ showcases/ friendly's should have a fair and reasonable expectation of the time their games start.

Team perspective is different. Having travelled a significant distance and devoted an entire weekend or a week to a tournament, playing a satisfying game is more important to me than whether the field is running 30 minutes ahead or behind.

Quality softball yes, but when there is a clock there is a time limit. There is not the ability to say
'hey this is a great game let's finish out a full seven Innings. if we need to do International tiebreaker let's do that too'

It's always about balancing being on time with making a good game.

At tournaments/ showcases/ friendly's everybody has the same expectation of time. What's different is how people use it. And actually if one team was slow eating up the clock and the other team was fast pushing the clock that would be balance because they counteract each other. some games drag and some games go quickly some just flow like normal.
Sometimes use three pitchers in one game and sometimes just use one the whole game.
Atleast the clock is the same for everybody!

 

[radness]

I'm not poking at you, I promise. I am trying to understand your thinking and possibly provide you with some education. It is possible that we are talking about the same thing, but it feels as if we are not. It seems you are talking about that final few minutes when people act concerned, while I am talking about the unnecessary delays throughout the entire game.

What rules do you think need to be added/changed?

What do you think of the catcher throwing down to second base once the pitcher has completed her warm ups? How about the team congregating around the pitcher after that? Nothing in the rulebook grants these actions.

Unscientific study on my part, but I started taking note this year. Did you know it takes an average of 2-3 minutes for a team to take the field following the plate meeting? The clock is running during that time.


Here is a sampling of rules from NFHS (these may or may not apply in other codes):

• The pitcher has 20 seconds from receiving the ball to release (not start) the pitch.
• The batter has 10 seconds from the pitcher receiving the ball to be in the box and ready (not just starting to get in the box).
• The batter is to keep one foot in the batter's box (with a few specific exceptions) while taking signs, warm-up swing, etc.
• The pitcher has ONE MINUTE to throw up to 5 warm up pitches. This time starts at the third out of the previous inning (not whenever she gets out there and puts herself together). This is not one minute to warm up and then another 90 seconds to throw the ball around, socialize, high five, and readjust all of her equipment.
• Once the umpire commands "Play!" (following a conference or stoppage of play) teams have 60 seconds to resume play.
• The defense has three conferences (in the standard 7 innings) that may be used AT ANY TIME. They receive one conference per inning in extra innings (the initial three do not carry over).
• The offense receives one conference per half-inning on offense. They are not cumulative.
• There is no prescribed time limit on a conference.

Note: Time limit games are not typically addressed in rulebooks. These are restrictions put in place by tournaments. While I am not a fan of a clock on the game, it is NECESSARY with tournaments. In fact, I believe tournaments need to do MORE to keep games on schedule.

This post describes a time to teams exchanging the field.
Consistency with umpire's attending to it would help the pace of the game.

 

[Nimrod]

What rules do you think are needed to "prevent stalling"?

I'm just throwing this out for discussion, not endorsing, but what would happen if you did this...

1. Give the offensive team the option of taking an immediate and automatic out when trailing by 3 runs or fewer. [This prevents having players make outs on purpose, which is disrespectful to the game, and it gives the offense a weapon against stalling, albeit it at a price. I wouldn't even charge a batter with an out. Let her start the next inning.]

2. Add 5 minutes to the clock for any defensive timeout or equipment delay by the leading team in the final 10 minutes of regulation. No more than 5 minutes can be added to a game. [If a timeout is really needed, then what's 5 minutes? In fact, you might look at this rule as adding 5 minutes to every game, but the team in the lead can shorten the game 5 minutes by not delaying it with a sham timeout or other shenanigan.]

 

[Northball]

...They changed back to the 100 minutes, finish the inning this year....

I had to re-read that line and got a good laugh at myself. I hope they can finish the inning this year!