Begging coaches...

[Mrek]

What are people’s thoughts on what I see as a proliferation of coaches asking umpires to "get help" on calls that don't go their way. I now see games where asking "for help" is done 3,4,5 times a game. IMO coaches need to tone it down and stop trying to play a "weak" umpire.

Obviously I had a call go against DD team this weekend...

18U Sunday game. 0-0 top 6. 2 down, runner on 2nd. Two man crew. Weak single up the middle, throw beats runner at the plate up 3rd base line slightly. Swipe tag, home plate ump clearly (and somewhat emphatically) calls runner out. While team leaves field, opposing coach asks the home plate umpire "to get help" as he is questioning that the tag was actually made. Umps converse and overturn call allowing run to score.

Yes, the catcher indicates that the tag was missed. However, the home plate umpire cannot give that call away if he is trained properly.

This was the 3rd "ask for help" request by the team in the game.

 

[FPump]

What are people’s thoughts on what I see as a proliferation of coaches asking umpires to "get help" on calls that don't go their way. I now see games where asking "for help" is done 3,4,5 times a game. IMO coaches need to tone it down and stop trying to play a "weak" umpire.

Obviously I had a call go against DD team this weekend...

18U Sunday game. 0-0 top 6. 2 down, runner on 2nd. Two man crew. Weak single up the middle, throw beats runner at the plate up 3rd base line slightly.
Swipe tag, home plate ump clearly (and somewhat emphatically) calls runner out. While team leaves field, opposing coach asks the home plate umpire "to get help" as he is questioning that the tag was actually made. Umps converse and overturn call allowing run to score.

Yes, the catcher indicates that the tag was missed. However, the home plate umpire cannot give that call away if he is trained properly.

This was the 3rd "ask for help" request by the team in the game.

I'll post my opinion on the 'begging coach syndrome" in a later post. Let me just say IMO it's gotten way out of hand, and I'll need time to respond to it properly...trust me it will be a long opinionated post from an umpire's POV.

Now on the play in your DD's game.

R1 on 2nd. this means the BU is in the C position approx. half way between 2nd & 3rd.
Single up the middle. If I'm the BU's my responsibilities quite quickly and almost simultaneously are:
(1) Is R1 advancing to 3rd? If she is I'm watching to make sure she is not obstructed.
(2) Pickup up the defensive player who fielded the hit, take a read if as to what she's going to do with the ball...
a) throw it to 1st? b) throw it to a cutoff? c) throw it to HP d) throw it 3rd? e) throw it to a cutoff f) booble/kick it around g) hold it and just get it into an
infielder or to the pitcher in the circle.
(3) Try to glance or pickup in my peripheral vision R2 as she rounded 3rd (I may have help PU if a rundown occurs)
(4) PICK UP THE BALL....where is it? who's got it? where in my area of responsibility could it be going if thrown.
(5) Pickup the BR, watching for a possible obstruction at 1st if she makes a turn
(6) Her initial direction and movements as she turns if she over runs 1st....and her subsequent actions.
(7) Take BR into 2nd if she decides to go...again watching for obstruction.
(8) Start establishing my angle for a possible play (which would be a tag play) on the BR at 2nd.

My point here is that because of my responsibilities, there's no way I can give the PU additional information on that play, unless I happened to see a dropped ball.
If I'm the PU, I'm not going to my BU for help on that particular type of play.

 

[SoftSocDad]

FPump - You're amazing. I appreciate you outlining the flowchart with us, as the average parent in the stands has no clue as to the hierarchy of your responsibilities...all we're focused in on is how everyone missed the call! lol

As long as it's a bang-bang decision that doesn't require any sort of extended umpire conference, I don't see the problem on check-swing calls or plays at the plate. Can't mandate a maximum, but how many close plays will there be at the plate in a given game anyway?

 

[andyh64000]

I would like them to get the calls right even if they need to ask for help.

 

[wild man]

I would like them to get the calls right even if they need to ask for help.

I do lots of umpiring as well as coaching ASAump is correct tha PU in this situation should not be going to his BU for help in this situation.
Asking for help is not what it seems to most people. Every umpire on the field has specific duties .
Sometimes Help cannot be given because we are all watching for different things.

 

[druer]

We could do it like instant replay in football. You get 1 challenge, if you get it right you get to keep going. If you get it wrong, your done.

Glad the umpires got it right in this case. Clearly in this case the PU had a terrible angle and couldn't even see that the tag wasn't made. If they knew they couldn't see the tag and had to guess, I'm glad that they asked for the help and the BU got it right. Especially when the catcher admits she didn't get the tag. It must have been pretty blatent for them to recognize that they missed the player.

Unfortunately as travel ball teams and tournaments continues to sky rocket the pool of well trained umpires hasn't kept pace. I've had to ask for help in the past when umpires call a player safe after FORCE plays becasue they were looking for a tag. One time I faced a pitcher that threw a ball to one of my batters that literally hit the top of the back stop and it was called a strike by an umpire who obviously had their eyes closed. They said it must have been fouled off if it went up that high. Not "I saw it get fouled off, just it must have or it wouldn't have gone that high." When you are facing these kinds of things week in and week out, it's not hard to imagine coaches loosing it and questioning things that maybe they shouldn't.

 

[sluggers]

It wasn't the shortstop doing an impersonation of an open door, or the CF's inability to catch a routine fly ball, or the batters swinging at pitches a foot over their heads--the loss was, without a doubt, the result of the umpire's mistake on one play.

 

[Mrek]

If the PU had a "terrible angle and couldn't even see that the tag wasn't made", he cannot make a out call. He needs to call the runner safe because he did not definitively "see an out". This would place the onus on the defending team to make an appeal (which we would not as the catcher would have told the coach she missed the tag). By making an out call, he believed he saw a out and, based on the BU's responsibilities, should not go for help as there is no help needed to resolve the play. This is how the game is umpired and how umpiring plays into game outcomes. It is part of the sports of Baseball and Softball, like it or not. What I would like to see is a little more respect from coaches for this aspect of the game. I am just a little tired of hearing the "get some help" request more and more.

Thanks to those umpires that responded. And I would really like to hear FPump expand on this.

 

[ASAPAump]

As an umpire, I always want to get the call right. I will always go to my partner for a discussion if there is even a remote possibility that he might have more information for me. I have no problem with a coach asking me to go for help on situations such as the following:

A pulled foot
A tag that was applied away from me, which my partner might have had a better angle

Here's an example from this past weekend. This is a classic example, IMO.

I'm BU with runner on 3B. Ground ball to F5, fielder checks the runner back to 3B and throws to 1B. Throw is high and F3 stretches. Ball beats the runner, and F3's foot never comes off the ground, so I call the out. 1st base coach requests that I go for help on a pulled foot. No problem. I talk with my partner, and indeed, while the toe never came off the ground, the heel did come away from the bag such that there was no contact with 1B. PU said it was pretty obvious from his angle, and he had no doubt. I overturned my call, and put the BR back on 1B. Fans that were sitting in left field weren't happy, but everyone else knew we ended up with the right call.

The issue becomes when a coach wants me to "go for help" on judgement calls, such as force plays or tag plays for which I am in the best position. I will not honor the coach's request in situations such as this. If I would, the door would be open for the coach to question every call, and that is just not good for game management.

 

[mudbug]

What I see, is way too many umpires that 1) are poor umps 2) dont even know the rules

This is a problem brought on by the sheer number of teams and tournaments. Unfortunately, very large or even national tournaments may have it worst due the the need for large #s of umps at one time. There only so many good ones to be found.