Winning 'B' Nationals means you should have been playing in the 'A' Bracket

[slingnit]

Some tournaments around here will seed teams in separate brackets after pool play and you will play teams that are of similar skill level (for example, there is a gold, silver, and bronze bracket). This is the best of both worlds since you get a chance to "play up" against better teams in pool play but are placed (based on pool play record) in the appropriate bracket during single or double elimination.

This isn't a sure fire way to separate talent levels either. Seen in pool play where 3 of the best teams in the tournament were in the same 4 team pool. 2 teams go to Gold bracket, 2 to Silver. The 2 that went to Gold bracket finished 1st and 2nd. The 3rd team that went to Silver won it with it's smallest margin if victory was 15 runs. So the associations need a way to rank teams for state or national tournaments. But with kids jumping from team to team and teams playing in multiple assoc. sponsored tourneys it would be hard.

 

[3bmama]

I'm going to agree with those who have said that maybe there needs to be more than the 3 divisions. My DDs team is obviously a B team. There is no pretending that they are A caliber. They did manage to finish above .500, probably bc we played u trip who did a good job of moving teams up who needed to be this year. There is a good example of a team we are familiar with. VS B teams they are 25-5. Makes some of us feel they have no business playing B ball. Then you look at their record against A teams and it is 2-12. Where should they play?
I'm guessing their ASA record looks rather different as all the teams U trip forced up to A are still playing B there. And I won't talk about the team who waited to enter the tourney until it was open with only 2 teams entered so they could win all their games with the closest game being 9-0. Yeah that happened.

 

[MNDad]

Being Top B/Low A is NOT an envious position. Lower teams in B don’t want to face them because they’re too good and the top A teams don’t want to play them because they’re not good enough. Another difficult issue as someone else mentioned that it varies widely by region. The average “A” team in Minnesota is a “C” team anywhere else. It also varies by sanctioning body. An “A” team is vastly different in PGF, ASA, USSSA or any of the other alphabets.

 

[CoogansBluff]

And another point here is if you are going to compete nationally you should be dominating locally. I see you guys talking the .500 win loss average. Who in their right minds would travel 400 to 900 miles, incurring all costs associated with meals, gas, and hotels rooms for a 4 and done tournament? The guy that doesn't retain his players, that's who. Losing all 4 and going home is a possibility for all teams but for the .500 team it is a probability.

That's right. One of the incentives to sand-bag is to avoid a quick exit.

If it were me, I'd make it bracket play, then single elimination, but losers continue to play, funneling into weaker draws. If you have a format where one team can play 4 games and another team can play 9, then you're asking for teams to sand-bag just to avoid the 4. But if 90 percent of teams play 6 games, then you're more likely to play where you belong and enjoy the trip.

 

[NoVA Softball]

So you are an average B team. You (the #120 team) play the #5, #15, #25 teams. You go 0-3 and get run-ruled twice. Then you play teams that are #100, #140, #160. You go 3-0. One was an upset. You conclude the difference between A and B is huge. On average, it is. The #20 team would generally smoke the #120 team.

I think CoogansBluff has it exactly right here (I'd have quoted the whole thing but it takes too much space).

This is essentially an unsolvable problem, because even if you took the top "X" from B and moved them up, the next "X" would then become dominant. There's always going to be the "best" B team and if/when they move up, the old #2 becomes the #1. I think teams are actually pretty spread out along a spectrum from weak-strong in each division, and at the strong C/weak B and strong B/weak A there's going to some overlaps either because of sand-bagging or just because it's really hard to accurately judge where your team should go -- especially because you have to try to figure that out in comparison to a bunch of other teams trying to decide where they should go too. I don't know that having MORE divisions solves this and may well make it worse.

Based on what they did in VA/MD/DE, and 3bmama's comment, it sounds like USSSA nationally has decided to take a more active role in policing divisions to keep some divisional competitiveness, and I think that's a very healthy thing. DD's team definitely enjoyed playing B tournaments over C once they moved up -- and the teams left in C probably had a better experience too. (Though on a side note, I do wish USSSA had added a B division at the Ocean City World Series. While it was a great tournament and very well run, forcing a bunch of regional C teams to B six weeks before the event and then only having a C and an open tournament left a bunch of teams in a tournament where they had very little hope of going further than 2-3 games in double elimination.)

 

[rdbass]

Like being the tallest midget in the circus......

 

[marriard]

I think CoogansBluff has it exactly right here (I'd have quoted the whole thing but it takes too much space).

This is essentially an unsolvable problem, because even if you took the top "X" from B and moved them up, the next "X" would then become dominant. There's always going to be the "best" B team and if/when they move up, the old #2 becomes the #1. I think teams are actually pretty spread out along a spectrum from weak-strong in each division, and at the strong C/weak B and strong B/weak A there's going to some overlaps either because of sand-bagging or just because it's really hard to accurately judge where your team should go -- especially because you have to try to figure that out in comparison to a bunch of other teams trying to decide where they should go too. I don't know that having MORE divisions solves this and may well make it worse.

You know, this isn't even the problem I originally posted.

The type of 'A' teams I am talking about are the ones that are dominant in 'A' already going to a B nationals. The teams with girls from all over the state or at least multiple counties, huge hitters and dominant pitching. So I am not even talking about the 'borderline' teams - I am talking about the 'probably will win the A' division teams who turn up to B Nationals. Often with 'name' brand team names...

This problem IS solvable.

 

[chrispots]

You know, this isn't even the problem I originally posted.

The type of 'A' teams I am talking about are the ones that are dominant in 'A' already going to a B nationals. The teams with girls from all over the state or at least multiple counties, huge hitters and dominant pitching. So I am not even talking about the 'borderline' teams - I am talking about the 'probably will win the A' division teams who turn up to B Nationals. Often with 'name' brand team names...

This problem IS solvable.

I'm headed to 12U ASA Eastern Regional B's tomorrow...

1st time there so I will hold out on passing judgement.

Believe me, I'm no "A" team in disguise...CP

 

[grcsftbll]

Where I live there are some teams that come from a neighboring state to play in tournaments that are supposed to be B level and they are not remotely B teams. When they register you know going in that barring something really crazy happening (which never has as far as I know), those teams will get the 1 and 2 spots so you're basically playing for fun and a chance at 3rd place. It's not really fair for tourneys that are designated as B level.

 

[nicelag]

Once again we have to make more rules to cover our existing rules which were made to amend the rules to stop cheaters. What a shame, but so is life in this crazy world I guess! We are going to Western B Nationals next week with a true rec ball team. Going into Nationals good 'ol ASA allows teams to add 3 players from pretty much anywhere in Sothern California. So you can basically load your team with 2 top line pitchers and another big bat that don't even play in your league. So in essence you go to Nationals and compete with a team other than that what got you qualified throughout the all star season. Great idea, and saying "well, everyone can do it" doesn't make it right either! So now not only are 3 of your regulars sitting, 3 more of your regulars, that played their hearts out for you all season by the way, are also going to sit behind girls that didn't even play in your league. Though many teams in our area are taking advantage of this rule we chose to stand tall and compete with our original team. If teams want to add players they should have to pull from their own league!

Funny how ASA is so worried about losing girls to travel and such, but they have ridiculous rules like this. Clean your own house first.