The Kelly Barnhill Thread

[cuzmail]

Legal or Illegal, simply. Nothing more or nothing less.

^^^^Fair enough
Until the illegal action is continually repeated and known.

I have honestly never taken the time to self-create an emotion internally that would have me label any amateur athlete in any sport a cheater. I let the sanctions themselves determine legal or illegal.
To me, cheating is not a defined direct correlation between an illegal pitch and a legal pitch. It is an opinionated label/conclusion chosen to be used. Thanks

Will all due respect, you are really stretching it here. There is no asterisk or different definition of the word cheating if it is an amateur sport.
Also, you could make an argument that scholarship collegiate athletes are not truly amateurs anyway.

The definition of cheating is as follows:
act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

The definition of amateur is as follows:
a person who engages in a pursuit, especially a sport, on an unpaid basis.

 

[DmystifieD]

Just to be clear when someone pitches illegally, willingly acknowledges that they do, and does so with the intent to attain a competitive advantage, you fail to see that as cheating?

Not playing your game as I know if I say yes you are going to come right back with Barnhill confided in you all of the above when she was in middle school. You have said it before

(not my first time in your rodeo, just the first time I've addressed you) If someone does something/anything illegaly and willingly acknowledges that they do, and does so with the intent to attain a competitive advantage, I believe you have the close definition of cheating.

The problem with your constructive question is...... you seem to think your opinion (or for that matter MY opinion or anyone else's here) of "Illegal" actually matters on this earth. It doesn't. that's not a slam, it's just fact. Go talk to blue and sanctioning bodies with your rhetoric, see how far you get.

 

[DmystifieD]

Will all due respect, you are really stretching it here. There is no asterisk or different definition of the word cheating if it is an amateur sport.

Yes, I agree. No argument from me. I have no problem hearing this. I sat for well over a year before I finally decided to engage and trust me, I knew it wasn't going to go over well. I sure as heck didn't jump in this if I wasn't prepared with what I had to say.

I have no problem admitting my agenda. None.

 

[FastPitchCat]

One more thought on this.... please remember that NO ONE is teaching Leaping. That is illegal. What is being taught is to maximize less drag by having minimal to NO cleat touching the dirt. By definition, not leaping. I know that's a fine line and I am not trying to play dumb. I get the question.

now that is confusing. re-reading the previous posts would have me believe that this leaping 'technique' is taught. DD's been to quite a few college camps and as bad as some pitching coaches were, none taught specifically to leap. She's been to Rita and Tincher camps as well. None.
Conversely, no PC also commented if someone leaped. go figure.

Sorry if i misunderstood.

Cleat not touching the dirt is illegal by definition. one way to achieve this is of course, to leap and yes, quite a few college pitchers do it and just because blue hasn't got the balls to call it, doesn't make it legal. no way.

minimal contact by just barely slicing on the dirt is not illegal and is preferred as it produces the least drag -- very true.

DD has been trying to perfect this for years. Her drive foot used to dig a ditch, now it just lightly scratches the surface.
DD does this all without leaping and it all started when blue called an IP when she was in REC ball.

So i guess the bigger question that we should be civilly discussing in a separate thread as this is not barnhill-only specific, is what to do with the rules or the lack of implementation thereof.
Someone care to start a new thread?

 

[DmystifieD]

now that is confusing. re-reading the previous posts would have me believe that this leaping 'technique' is taught. DD's been to quite a few college camps and as bad as some pitching coaches were, none taught specifically to leap. She's been to Rita and Tincher camps as well. None.
Conversely, no PC also commented if someone leaped. go figure.

Sorry if i misunderstood.

Cleat not touching the dirt is illegal by definition. one way to achieve this is of course, to leap and yes, quite a few college pitchers do it and just because blue hasn't got the balls to call it, doesn't make it legal. no way.

minimal contact by just barely slicing on the dirt is not illegal and is preferred as it produces the least drag -- very true.

DD has been trying to perfect this for years. Her drive foot used to dig a ditch, now it just lightly scratches the surface.
DD does this all without leaping and it all started when blue called an IP when she was in REC ball.

So i guess the bigger question that we should be civilly discussing in a separate thread as this is not barnhill-only specific, is what to do with the rules or the lack of implementation thereof.
Someone care to start a new thread?

Yes, You got it. While I said taught, i was only implying studs are shown this. I had to re-state that after it was interpreted that i was saying there were pitching coaches who teach nothing but this. Fair that it got lost. Not what I intended. I tried not to be shy about the information we were shown in an effort to stop the public bashing of amateur young ladies. Information I was shown circa 2010-2011 seasons.

I would volunteer one difference pointed out to us in your sentences, a fine line, but again something instilled in us years ago. "until you play on a manicured field, (clay in college), odds are the plane of the pitchers plate is more important that dirt itself" . I dont want to be ignorant and say you are wrong, you are clearly right. Just wanted to point out dirt isnt the word used all the time.

 

[riseball]

What does your moral compass allow you to call it?

I do not think the moral compass is an issue. Rather it is an issue of holding those who break the rules accountable. Would rather sugar coat it and be their friend than actually hold players to a high moral and ethical standard. It is enabling such as this that give rise to cheats like Barnhill. If she had not been enabled her whole career we would not be having this discussion. Enablers always have a rationalization why the rules are wrong, why they are not appropriate, and now why even adults need to be coddled. Don't call an IP it may hurt their self esteem!

 

[DmystifieD]

I do not think the moral compass is an issue. Rather it is an issue of holding those who break the rules accountable. Would rather sugar coat it and be their friend than actually hold players to a high moral and ethical standard. It is enabling such as this that give rise to cheats like Barnhill. If she had not been enabled her whole career we would not be having this discussion. Enablers always have a rationalization why the rules are wrong, why they are not appropriate, and now why even adults need to be coddled. Don't call an IP it may hurt their self esteem!

I agree with everything you say, when i slowly read it one sentence at a time. Except these 3 sentences:

" It is enabling such as this that give rise to cheats like Barnhill."
I have nothing nice to say here.

"If she had not been enabled her whole career we would not be having this discussion."
Actually, I think we would. This is an old topic, discussion always goes on. I have found though that it is not just not targeted at one young lady for 1.5 years doing what several (can i say countless?) others do.
Plenty of names have come and gone, same discussion.

"Don't call an IP it may hurt their self esteem!"
Disagree 100%. Feelings shouldn't come into a call.

 

[DmystifieD]

i asked this question several pages back but didn't get an answer.

what do i type into google, yahoo or bing to find PC's that actually teach the leap as a technique?

i've typed " fastpitch pitching leaping PC instruction leap drag" but found nothing but why it's illegal to leap (at least here in the US of A).
i'm curious.

This cr@p spools me up....

FastpitchCat. You indeed did get a reply!!!! I sure thought I had replied. Let me help you find it. It is the F'N reply right below your original F'N question. RIGHT BELOW Unbelievable. Oddly enough, it's the same answer I just re-typed when I felt bad you didn't get a reply. All that being said, if you couldnt find that, GOOGLE won't help you at all. un F'N believable.

 

[FastPitchCat]

This cr@p spools me up....

FastpitchCat. You indeed did get a reply!!!! I sure thought I had replied. Let me help you find it. It is the F'N reply right below your original F'N question. RIGHT BELOW Unbelievable. Oddly enough, it's the same answer I just re-typed when I felt bad you didn't get a reply. All that being said, if you couldnt find that, GOOGLE won't help you at all. un F'N believable.

Thought i replied to this, id have to go back. I would have said, go find the 2 gals we most talk about (barnhill and carda), now find who they played for BEFORE tv. See if you can find them. Once found, go find their teammates. I really thought I alluded to this. Sorry. Riseball SPUN this that this was pitching coach (or coaches) who teach everyone this. NOT what I said, so a google search looking for that would bring nothing is my hunch. You wont find, or at least I dont know of any who teach this to every student. Maybe there are some, but this skill (actually a drill) is not something 12U and under is seeing. The studs are given information that helps them mature and grow in this sport. Suzy Newbie is not even going to hear this. Sorry, I cant spell it out any more. I know the girls, I know the coaches, that is just part of being in the mix with them. However, the searches will bring some light I believe. I also have no agenda to name the coaches, i have NO agenda. Other than ending the amateur bashing.

One more thing, I am not here to point out who the top coaches in the area are. Nor am I here to point out who my DD's coach is, or was. All of these clues are doing what I said early on... I am NOT going to outfit a bunch of whining dads with intel so they can come on here and bash more. I mentioned something like that I am confident.

yes, you already replied yesterday but you forgot that you already replied and re-replied again but topped your latest reply with all the profanity. thank you for your reply, once again.

 

[obbay]

this is the thread that will never die. it has taken on the epic proportions of a political argument that cannot be "won" by either side.

Unless i'm mistaken, it sounds like the riseball school of thought believes that getting away with repeated rule violations is cheating.
On the other hand, the DmystifieD school disagrees in that if a violation is not called, it's not a violation.

obbay's analogy- If a batter has no part of their body in the strike zone, is hit with a pitch and the umpire calls it a strike. RB would say the pitcher did not throw a strike where DmD would say she did.

intent also seems to be an issue where some say cheating only exists with intent. Barnhill either knows she's cheating or she doesn't.
I learned in Poli Sci 101 that ignorance of the law (or in this case rule) is not a valid excuse. (this referring to the player being ignorant of the violation)

I believe that any pitcher and her family, coaches and team would never change anything as long as the pitcher is riding on a wave of great success, even if it was brought about by umpires failure or political/marketing reasons.

Changing the rule in response to allowing a player to be exempt from that rule doesn't sound like evolution of the game, it sounds like CYA from past failures.