The Kelly Barnhill Thread

[FP26]

During one of DD's high school games approximately 2 years ago, the opposing pitcher was called for 10 IPs in one game. In reality, she could have been called every single time she threw the ball. After the 3rd or 4th time called, this pitcher had a complete meltdown, actually crying in the circle. She started struggling with the strike zone, continued to get called for IPs and was eventually pulled and replaced. This was a high school senior (at the time) and is now pitching in college. She has pitched that way as long as I have known her in high school and travel ball. The previous time we played her she was not called for a single IP, even though the mechanics were the same. I will not go as far as saying that this pitcher was "taught" to perform with those mechanics, but I will suggest that she was unable to find a reason to change because of the lack of enforcement of the rules.

My opinion: The rules are the rules. My DD has not been called for an IP since her freshman year in high school and that was due to not presenting the ball long enough. Anyway, if they are going to keep the rules as they are, they really should be enforced. If no one is going to enforce them, I don't see any reason to not change them. My preference is to keep them as they are and enforce them. Unfortunately it is not my call and I doubt the officials really care what I think.

 

[DmystifieD]

Good stuff. I firmly believe a lot aren't taught, especially the young one's. The older one's is where I tend to lean to taught, but my thinking is not concrete for sure. Your story reminds me of a story I saw unfold in 12U all stars as a family friend has been asking us to come watch her daughter play in all stars. 12U B all stars, 3-4 years ago. We made the 20 minute trek to the park. From the onset I sat and watched a dad, his DD not even in the game, call HOP out loud every pitch. I mean every pitch, sometimes before during and after the pitch. The parents all kind of chuckled (dad was friends of hitting team, yet both teams grew up together)

Here's the catch. I know this guy, nice family, well respected in community (out of softball), Law Enforcement irony. I was a little shocked as I watched the long time Vice President of our local rec leagues daughter stand their BALLING in the circle, before the end of the first inning!!!! She was done for the game.

This DADDY in the stands just ruined a young girls weekend, and who knows what else. I mentioned before how we handle that here. It took me 5 pitches. 5... and I, all by myself, 5'8" about 160 wet, went and had a nice peaceful talk with this dad. Needless to say the conversation was well received and I got to watch a 45 year old man beg a 11 year old for forgiveness THAT DAY.....

This shirt strikes a chord with me.

 

[riseball]

...What is being taught is to maximize less drag by having minimal to NO cleat touching the dirt. By definition, not leaping.....

If that is the case they are being taught to cheat, because what you describe is by definition is most certainly leaping. The pivot foot must stay in contact with the ground. No drag = illegal. If you do it intentionally, you are by all definitions a cheat! Regardless if you are a noob, an accomplished amateur, or a professional.

It is a very simple concept, when you deliberately work outside the rules you are a cheat.

If you are in grade school and copy homework you are a cheat.

If you are in HS and google answers to a test on your cellphone, you are a cheat.

If you are in college and leap in order to throw harder or gain an advantage, you are a cheat.

Sorry there is no such thing as having undocumented mechanics. You cannot weasel word it, you are just a cheat.

Someone please explain to me how I have it wrong other than I have offend someone sense of decorum that feels that although someone is an adult, just because they are an amateur they should not be held accountable? Isn't this type of permissive mindset and failure to hold people accountable that got us in this IP mess to begin with?

 

[DmystifieD]

If that is the case they are being taught to cheat, because what you describe is by definition leaping. The pivot foot must stay in contact with the ground. No drag = illegal. If you do it intentionally, you are by all definitions a cheat! Regardless if you are a noob, an accomplished amateur, or a professional.

It is a very simple concept, when you deliberately work outside the rules you are a cheat.

If you are in grade school and copy homework you are a cheat.

If you are in HS and google answers to a test on your cellphone, you are a cheat.

If you are in college and leap in order to throw harder or gain an advantage, you are a cheat.

Sorry there is no such thing as having undocumented mechanics. You cannot weasel word it, you are just a cheat.

Someone please explain to me how I have it wrong other than I have offend someone sense of decorum that feels that although someone is an adult, just because they are an amateur they should not be held accountable? Isn't this type of permissive mindset and failure to hold people accountable that got us in this IP mess to begin with?

My moral compass doesn't look fondly on adults calling amateurs cheats. I have no other way to say it. That is a line you and I seem to be on opposite sides.

I have nothing to bring to the table other than I was taught this at least 7 or 8 years ago (which you denied I was taught, calling me an idiot) and that it's still being taught, which I am witness!

Your continued attacks on me and begging for others to either confirm my beliefs or tear them down doesn't change the validity of the above 2 lines and never will.

 

[Easton33]

I disagree Easton33. I get your moral principle you are employing, trust me. I do. but Own It? Own What? Own the fact that I am not a disgruntled pitchers daddy (yet I am a pitchers daddy) or a revenue affected person (who along with P's daddies as I have stated appear to me to be MOST of who make up this class of folks questioning the rules, sure I could be wrong) who has witnessed and accepted the fact that this style has been around for years and it is in fact part of the game and is not going away until something/some rule/some training changes? If that's what you want me to own, I've owned that since my first post. Right?

It really has nothing to do with admitting anything. If you all want to hear me say she is cheating, it is NOT happening. You know my answer, quit bashing amateurs. They are doing as probably instructed.

I remember your DUI example from last post. Now it's a driving speed issue. You are crossing an individual sports rules with actual laws represented by lawmakers! I do get the intent. Sure it proves your point. Let me add this though, I will try to use your example, but I am afraid I may not be able to make my point "constructing" this...... so forgive me if I really mess up my intent.

The police don't pull anyone over for doing 60 in a 55. The sign posted in this case clearly says 55. They have not pulled ANYONE over in the country for doing 56, 57, 58 or 59 or 60 in the past 10 years.

You now need to start your drive on the highway. Everyone, including an officer as you merge is traveling 60 as you enter the highway. You doing 60 or 55? As a youth, we were taught to go with the flow of traffic. As a youth, PRE 16, we were instructed to NOTE the speed limit and stay with the flow of traffic as this is a safe practice.

These girls are trying to win and be seen by colleges and get scholarships, why wouldn't they drive 60? jeeze, i think i was able to do it! lol

I think you did too but the problem is you are trying to use the "everyone else does it" justification. What did your parents say when you said that? Exactly. I know you agree she is illegal but the problem you have is admitting that she is gaining an unfair advantage. She is. And you support her whether it is technically right or wrong, that is what I am saying you should own. Own it but acknowledge she is illegal, don't play word games. She is getting away with a ton of illegal pitches some of us don't like it, others are OK with it (you). Any of us that actually know about pitching know she is illegal. Your are the only one that says she isn't and that's (I think) because you don't want to be OK with supporting an illegal pitcher. I think she is so obviously illegal that there may actually be a rule change or penalty change soon.

 

[cuzmail]

My moral compass doesn't look fondly on adults calling amateurs cheats.

What does your moral compass allow you to call it?

 

[Easton33]

What does your moral compass allow you to call it?

Fair play challengeD? ��

 

[DmystifieD]

What does your moral compass allow you to call it?

Legal or Illegal, simply. Nothing more or nothing less. I have honestly never taken the time to self-create an emotion internally that would have me label any amateur athlete in any sport a cheater. I let the sanctions themselves determine legal or illegal.

To me, cheating is not a defined direct correlation between an illegal pitch and a legal pitch. It is an opinionated label/conclusion chosen to be used. Thanks

 

[riseball]

Legal or Illegal, simply. Nothing more or nothing less. I have honestly never taken the time to self-create an emotion internally that would have me label any amateur athlete in any sport a cheater. I let the sanctions themselves determine legal or illegal.

To me, cheating is not a defined direct correlation between an illegal pitch and a legal pitch. It is an opinionated label/conclusion chosen to be used. Thanks

Just to be clear when someone pitches illegally, willingly acknowledges that they do, and does so with the intent to attain a competitive advantage, you fail to see that as cheating?

 

[DmystifieD]

I think you did too but the problem is you are trying to use the "everyone else does it" justification. What did your parents say when you said that? Exactly. I know you agree she is illegal but the problem you have is admitting that she is gaining an unfair advantage. She is. And you support her whether it is technically right or wrong, that is what I am saying you should own. Own it but acknowledge she is illegal, don't play word games. She is getting away with a ton of illegal pitches some of us don't like it, others are OK with it (you). Any of us that actually know about pitching know she is illegal. Your are the only one that says she isn't and that's (I think) because you don't want to be OK with supporting an illegal pitcher. I think she is so obviously illegal that there may actually be a rule change or penalty change soon.

Ahhh yes, everyone else does it. Doesn;t work in the court of law, BUT it does work and has been practiced for a lot of years in sports. Long before softball came to be.

This has been going on for years in Softball (dating back to PRE 2011) Their peers do it, their idols do it, we have seen them on TV doing this for quite some time. This is my point exactly. In an arena that is NOT LAW.....called Softball, where NO UMPIRE is calling this and hasnt for years, AND these girls are getting the best jobs in the country and STILL are getting the best jobs in the country, I can only suggest to do what the best in the country are doing (i didnt say "getting away with" or "cheat" the word I have used since day 1 is EMULATE). Great Teachers teach emulation. That is a common skill any life coach, in any life event would teach - do it how the best are.

You all want to bring my case to admit its legal or illegal. Not getting on that wagon, wont happen. This is not law. It's a decades old sport with plenty of people having success at it, even though some want to tear them down.

I can only imagine how this place would have blown up when:

Knute Rockne through a forward pass
Stan Makita curved a stick
Harry Decker invented a protective device for his hand. Ya, a catchers mitt

none of them were called cheaters yet they ALL Maximized their abilities within their sport.

ETA: actually, I am probably wrong with that last sentence. I bet some goalies dad called Makita a cheater, or some Defensive backs dad called Rockne a cheater. Humans