teaching a 10 y/o I/R??!!

[BoardMember]

Thanks for this - yes I have shown her and tried to work with her on the drills - there are many problems with this for us though, A. she becomes frustrated because it's not what she's used to and is not seeing success this way.... B. she tells me that this is NOT what "Coach XXX says" (love that one) and C. we butt heads sometimes because we are both a little stubbern.

Ya, I get all of this...........She's 10..........Gotta cut her some slack.........So how about a different approach........

First of all..........Do you know for a fact that she isn't throwing with I/R despite how/what she's being taught? Have you verified your conclusion with video of her mechanics? Have you filmed her and showed her film of her own mechanics compared to high level pitchers?

Last.....And something to consider..........Film her COACH THROWING A PITCH HIM/HERSELF and determine whether HE/SHE can actually throw with high level mechanics.........This might accomplish a few things.

1.) Show her (DD) that he/she (the coach) has no clue, and you've finally realized that, which is why you want to make a change so she can be the best she can be........

2.) You may find out that the coach actually does throw correctly but doesn't teach what HE/SHE does. If so, you can review the film with the coach and encourage HE/SHE to start teaching your DD to pitch they way HE/SHE throws the ball.........This may force the coach to re-think HIS/HER teaching methods. Maybe you can create an I/R coach in your area for the benefit of others!

Let me say this.........If DD is having success at the level she's playing currently.........Regardless of how she's throwing..........And she's fighting you about making a change at this age..........YOU WILL RISK the chance of killing the flame that burns inside her for the sport if you PUSH TOO HARD..........AND RISK the sports relationship between you and her that is just DAD AND DD doing something they love together...........

Are you sure worrying about I/R at this age is worth that risk to YOU????

Sometimes these decisions have to come from within..........And it may NOT be the time for that to happen yet........

I'll tell you this Mav.........I have had many young students who were brought to me for EXACTLY the reasons you are trying to make a change........Parents see first hand how good my pitchers are at such a young age.......And how they are doing something DIFFERENT and more aggressive athletically than they are being taught currently........

And after spending ONE LESSON with they're DD's.........I can tell whether they're DD's are READY AND WILLING to make the changes they need to make.........AND IN MANY CASES, I tell these parents that THIS IS NOT GOING TO WORK at this point in time, BECAUSE the kid is telling me EVERYTHING YOUR DD TELLS you about WHY they don't want to change........And they are FIGHTING the changes from the first minute of the lesson.........

I tell these parents that their kids are not mentally mature enough or ready for the change they (parents) have chosen for their kids.........And to bring them back when THEY (kids) are ready to make the changes necessary to create high level mechanics..........

I tell the parents that it is NOT worth ruining the kids love for pitching, and their own relationships at such a young age........And send them on their way...........

Just some things to consider.........

 

[softball_mom#7]

And you will. Change isn't easy for most. I still struggle with the fact that I/R seems like a secret and why more coaches don't know or understand it. Once your DD starts producing using I/R most won't say too much unless she has an off day and is struggling. Most people we encounter think we are nuts and I am ok with that. This is my experience anyhow.

 

[Maverick]

I do think that she has a bit of i/r in her naturally - but other times i see her hello elbow there forcing the follow through and pushing the ball she was originally taught to "stay behind the ball" with "back of the hand to your catcher" then "flick the wrist", follow straight up and through with fingers pointing "back at you" she'll go from a nice natural relaxed (what looks to be natural i/r) to stiff arm push pitching...

Let me say this.........If DD is having success at the level she's playing currently.........Regardless of how she's throwing..........And she's fighting you about making a change at this age..........YOU WILL RISK the chance of killing the flame that burns inside her for the sport if you PUSH TOO HARD..........AND RISK the sports relationship between you and her that is just DAD AND DD doing something they love together...........

Are you sure worrying about I/R at this age is worth that risk to YOU????

This may be some of the best ever advice... she played 10U last year on a team made up of kids that had never played before (like my DD) and kids that had experience playing town ball only. We played in only a few tournaments, the first in april 2013 and she was not ready for pitching at all... and did town ball so she gained some experience (using a stupid 12" ball and pitching from 40' mind you) then we switch back to 11" and 35 feet for her town allstars and she's a STAR - we win the section! Flash forward to next 2 travel ball tournaments and she's throwning her own games and winning - became our #2 pitcher (frankly i thought she was more consistent than our #1, but they were so close in their abilities it didnt matter much) my daughter was league age 9 (december kid too) the other pitchers were all 10.
next tournment following weekend my kids threw a 1 hitter and a 2 hitter only walking 5 kids in both games - as a first year pitcher which i felt was impressive - she's averaging low 40s and can GO THE DISTANCE

why am i saying all this? she'll be our #1 this year no question. we have NO depth in pitching at all other than her - maybe 2 girls that COULD become good pitchers but they are not putting in the time .... so do i wanna mess with this right now? i dont know

i'm also the HC of the team... the hello elbow coach is/has been a part of our team's organization for 20 years...
what would your advice be ? - i'm thinking maybe - hey lets not freak out that she's mixing in some hello elbow and let her do what she loves...

probably also important to note that my kid LOVES to be on the mound, LOVES the control and LOVES the feeling to strike someone out - win or lose she's not so big on she just loves putting on her show -
now when we're home... well, if theres no audience i've gotta push her a little... does everyone go through this?

 

[corlay]

I'm in a similar boat.

My 9U DD had been pitching in her 3rd season when we "discovered" I/R.
She had been getting regular instruction from her first PC for about 3-4months prior.
Luckily, most of her formal instruction focused upon leg/torso technique/form early on,
because she was such a 'forward leaner" left to her own devices the 2 previous years;
so never really was prodded toward a H/E type delivery/release/follow-through.

But since we were in the midst of a playing season when this all happened,
all I did was start to regiment her warm-up drills to align with I/R in the classroom concepts,
one-by-one, until each became 'comfortable" before incorporating the next.
And when it came to pitching in games, I just let her pitch.
The concept was, if her warm-up drills all included proper I/R concepts, it would eventually "bleed" into her in-game pitching.

This process started in mid-June, and now in September she seems to be exhibiting decent I/R mechanics;
except for she's not getting the best arm-whip at the last stage before release. Still throwing ~45-47, but arm is too stiff/elbow too straightened; and uses too much shoulder. But since incorporating the I/R warm-up drills, speed and accuracy have both improved greatly.

We start with a new PC next week who understands and teaches I/R,
so I'm pretty excited to see how he evaluates her, and what he identifies as our first order of business to work on.

 

[Maverick]

start to regiment her warm-up drills to align with I/R in the classroom concepts,
one-by-one, until each became 'comfortable" before incorporating the next.
And when it came to pitching in games, I just let her pitch.
The concept was, if her warm-up drills all included proper I/R concepts, it would eventually "bleed" into her in-game pitching.

thats brilliant! why didn't I think of that!

We start with a new PC next week who understands and teaches I/R,
so I'm pretty excited to see how he evaluates her, and what he identifies as our first order of business to work on.

let me know how this goes! Binghamton is about 2.5 hours from me and if thats the closest we can get.... so be it!

 

[Rocketech1]

I do think that she has a bit of i/r in her naturally - but other times i see her hello elbow there forcing the follow through and pushing the ball she was originally taught to "stay behind the ball" with "back of the hand to your catcher" then "flick the wrist", follow straight up and through with fingers pointing "back at you" she'll go from a nice natural relaxed (what looks to be natural i/r) to stiff arm push pitching...



This may be some of the best ever advice... she played 10U last year on a team made up of kids that had never played before (like my DD) and kids that had experience playing town ball only. We played in only a few tournaments, the first in april 2013 and she was not ready for pitching at all... and did town ball so she gained some experience (using a stupid 12" ball and pitching from 40' mind you) then we switch back to 11" and 35 feet for her town allstars and she's a STAR - we win the section! Flash forward to next 2 travel ball tournaments and she's throwning her own games and winning - became our #2 pitcher (frankly i thought she was more consistent than our #1, but they were so close in their abilities it didnt matter much) my daughter was league age 9 (december kid too) the other pitchers were all 10.
next tournment following weekend my kids threw a 1 hitter and a 2 hitter only walking 5 kids in both games - as a first year pitcher which i felt was impressive - she's averaging low 40s and can GO THE DISTANCE

why am i saying all this? she'll be our #1 this year no question. we have NO depth in pitching at all other than her - maybe 2 girls that COULD become good pitchers but they are not putting in the time .... so do i wanna mess with this right now? i dont know

i'm also the HC of the team... the hello elbow coach is/has been a part of our team's organization for 20 years...
what would your advice be ? - i'm thinking maybe - hey lets not freak out that she's mixing in some hello elbow and let her do what she loves...

probably also important to note that my kid LOVES to be on the mound, LOVES the control and LOVES the feeling to strike someone out - win or lose she's not so big on she just loves putting on her show -
now when we're home... well, if theres no audience i've gotta push her a little... does everyone go through this?

MY question is if you are not going to teach her the proper way to pitch now, then when? When she is 12 or 13 and has ingrained the Hello Elbow mechanics into her muscle memory? If you and she want to take it to the next level, I would try to do it right from the beginning, its just so much harder to teach it later after 1000s of reps the wrong way. A little "pain" now will pay off in the long run. Do some of the drills "show it and throw it" and the 45 degree drill and make sure the palm is facing homeplate at 12:00 and to the sky at 9:00. Fall is the perfect time to make the necessary changes so she is ready for spring and summer ball. Just my .02

 

[Gudystash24]

MY question is if you are not going to teach her the proper way to pitch now, then when?

I'm guessing this is why and I thought it was good advice myself.

Originally Posted by BoardMember
Let me say this.........If DD is having success at the level she's playing currently.........Regardless of how she's throwing..........And she's fighting you about making a change at this age..........YOU WILL RISK the chance of killing the flame that burns inside her for the sport if you PUSH TOO HARD..........AND RISK the sports relationship between you and her that is just DAD AND DD doing something they love together...........

Are you sure worrying about I/R at this age is worth that risk to YOU????

 

[Hillhouse]

Maverick... where are you located? Shoot me a PM if you don't want to announce it, I'm just curious.

Unfortunately, you're in a no win battle. A kid who appears to resist what you're telling her and a pitching coach contradicting you too. And most kids would rather listen to ANYONE except Mom/Dad. I think adding terms like "IR" to her vocabulary will confuse her. "Hello Elbow" is a catchy phrase as the actual body movement corresponds with the words. Not to mention, most girls idolize Jennie Finch who promotes this teaching and EVERYONE wants to be like Jennie Finch! Most people don't focus on what Finch, Scarborough, or any of these ladies actually DO, they concern themselves with what they SAY. And there is a serious contradiction here between what they say and do.

I don't want to tell you what to do. You're in a tough spot. Personally, I wouldn't let my kid attend a school that teaches 6+6 = 13 when I KNOW that's not right. And that's kind of what the HE thing is. You can practice flash cards and do homework on the theory that 6+6=13 but in the end it's not true and it's only going to mess your math up in the future. When I mention this analogy, I often hear "What if the only school in our area is teaching that 6+6=13 How do I combat that?" Well, you're going to have to swallow a little pride here. If you find a coach who is teaching what you want her to learn: "IR", Hal's tricks, etc. then you need to have a private conversation with that coach and ask the coach to talk to your daughter. Personally, I try to do this with all of my students when we begin (and they occasionally need reminders!). The coach needs to make sure your DD understands that the lessons you're getting are for BOTH you and your DD. The coach should be teaching BOTH of you. And the coach should make sure DD understands that when you offer advise at practice or in the backyard, it's not meant to be critical. It's meant to help. Kids sometimes are hypersensitive to the parents saying anything so, make sure DD knows EVERYONE is only trying to help her. You are not going to tell her she's doing XYZ wrong when she's actually not! Everyone's goal is the same, her improvement. It can be easily forgotten by kids that the parents are actually trying to help. Now, we can debate all day long about what is the best way to do that. Personally, I tell parents to answer questions if the kids ask as honestly as they can. If you don't know why something isn't working then say "I don't know". But to say something, good or bad, after EVERY pitch is going to do one of a couple things: she's either going to tune you out and stop listening, or she's going to become dependent on that feedback after every pitch. Neither is ideal. So, only say something, good or bad every few pitches. Then if a bad pitch is thrown... ask HER what she did wrong. Get her to self correct and have some body awareness.

Good luck

Bill

 

[Maverick]

Thanks very much for this response Bill. Theres no question that we need to lay off telling her something after every pitch... totally guilty of it - but making an effort to nix that NOW. It's so hard... you just want them to succeed and you feel like you're helping them when you tell them what they are doing wrong but reality is that you are doing the opposite.

Funny thing, we actually emailed you yesterday looking to see if you are ever in our area (NY) you responded last night

I am completely on board with traveling to get my kid the education she needs to know that 6+6 =12 (and not 13)
I am brand new to this site, but I did see one of your older posts that you have a friend in Monticello Darren Rea... I'm thinking if we can not hook up with you anytime in the near future, it would be worth a trip to go see him.

Again, much thanks

Mav

 

[Rocketech1]

Theres no question that we need to lay off telling her something after every pitch... totally guilty of it - but making an effort to nix that NOW. It's so hard... you just want them to succeed and you feel like you're helping them when you tell them what they are doing wrong but reality is that you are doing the opposite.

Maverick - It sounds like your DD is getting mixed messages and it's frustrating for her (and you). It's critical that you and the PC work together as a team and are on board with the fundamental mechanics you are trying to teach her.

With my DD, during lessons I rarely speak much and primarily just catch her as her PC stands near her and coaches my DD after every pitch. The first lesson with this PC was difficult for my DD because she felt the coach was criticizing every pitch. But DD got used to this style of coaching and it has been effective for her. So the point of this story is that I generally keep my mouth shut and let the PC do the coaching. If I have suggestions, questions, comments, I save them for the beginning or end of practice or between water breaks (her lessons are 1 hour).

The other point is that some kids can handle lots of constructive criticism during a lesson, others may need a softer approach. Sometimes kids listen better to an adult that is not mom/dad. When DD practices only with me, it's less about mechanics because she seems to self-correct and work out the issues on her own. I'm there to be morale support, make sure she does all the drills correctly, we discuss pitch strategy, pretend there are batters at the plate and keep track of balls and strikes, pitch sequences, etc. It's a less intense practice session than with her PC and I believe a nice, balanced approach to pitching practice.