Spinning the "Flip" Change-up

[SoCalSoftballdad]

What are your thoughts on creating lots of backspin on the "flip" change. More spin or less?

 

[starsnuffer]

As long as it drops and doesn't float, it really doesn't matter. I find that slower pitches don't need to have rapid spin to move, they just need "enough".

-W

 

[GunnerShotgun]

If you want it to move, than more spin (drop change, etc.). Make sure it doesn't bullet spin, that would be a good indicator that it's a change, assuming you have proper spin on your other pitches.

You want it to look like a fastball (yes I understand the spins are reversed).

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

Thanks. It would seem to me that lots of backspin on the Flip c/u would keep it up in the strike zone a little bit longer which might NOT be a good thing versus little to no spin which looks like a strike but drops out of the zone? Currently, my DD's c/u does not have a lot of spin, but the spin it does have is more like 8/2 spin (as seen by the catcher) and tends to move down and away from a right handed batter.

 

[GOINGDEEP]

As far as the flip, I personally like decent spin. I feel the spin messes with the hitters ability to gauge the depth of the incoming pitch.

DD throws a push palm change and we try to put as little spin on it as possible so it has a tendency to have a knuckling effect, IF SHE THROWS IT CORRECT. Only con is the catcher's ability, that includes old bucket dad.

 

[starsnuffer]

Down and away is perfect. What you want, ideally, is for the ball to start dropping a few feet in front of the batter, cross the plate at the knees on the outside corner, and land just behind the outside corner of the plate but not behind the back "tip" of the plate. The catcher should be blocking these, rather then catching (and dad/mom should be turning their glove over as if to field a ground ball to receive them as they come in)

A swing and a miss is great, but a weak hit to an infielder for an easy out is even better. Nothing wrong with throwing a change on the first pitch.

-W

 

[smddad]

As far as the flip, I personally like decent spin. I feel the spin messes with the hitters ability to gauge the depth of the incoming pitch.

DD throws a push palm change and we try to put as little spin on it as possible so it has a tendency to have a knuckling effect, IF SHE THROWS IT CORRECT. Only con is the catcher's ability, that includes old bucket dad.

A knuckle change can be nasty to try and hit. My DD learned a variation of it this past off-season. She's also added a drop change to her repertoire.

 

[coach james]

For me with my dd, when she flips too hard the ball will kinda float... aka, oops
Try to add a touch of a roll over by finishing the release with the thumb pointed downwards. This will add some cutting movement down and out and will prevent the dreaded floating pitch

 

[GunnerShotgun]

For me with my dd, when she flips too hard the ball will kinda float... aka, oops
Try to add a touch of a roll over by finishing the release with the thumb pointed downwards. This will add some cutting movement down and out and will prevent the dreaded floating pitch

So if you are catching a flip change what direction are you seeing for the spin? Is it 6 - 12? Isn't that the same as the riseball?

My DD is fast enough now that she is hanging some of her flip changeups. Before her flip change would come in and drop in a bucket. Now she is throwing a slow fastball (no drop).

Flip change experts what say you?

 

[Rocketech1]

So if you are catching a flip change what direction are you seeing for the spin? Is it 6 - 12? Isn't that the same as the riseball?

My DD is fast enough now that she is hanging some of her flip changeups. Before her flip change would come in and drop in a bucket. Now she is throwing a slow fastball (no drop).

Flip change experts what say you?

From my understanding of the flip change mechanics is that because the arm internally rotates early (before 6:00 release), this effectively kills most of the arm whip and the velocity of the pitch is greatly reduced (by 25 - 30%) because the arm circle speed and not the arm whip is creating the velocity of the pitch. IMO, you should be throwing the flip change as hard as you can because it will never have greater than 75% of the speed of your fastest pitch. Do not slow down the arm circle to make the change up slower, big mistake since it tips off the batter and its hard to regulate the speed of the pitch slowing down the arm. The very nature of the flip change allows for all the exact same mechanics of the other pitches, with the only real difference is the arm rotates early and the back of the hand will be coming through the release point before the ball. The finish of the arm should replicate the follow-through of the fastball. Hillhouse is a big proponent that all of your pitches should mechanically "look" the same to the batter. I think there is much wisdom in that statement. Too many pitchers I see have wildly different mechanics for different pitches. For example, for the screwball, they jump to the left and throw the ball to the right in an attempt to angle the pitch and get some side spin on the ball. Why tell the batter where you are throwing the pitch and what type of pitch it is?

"My DD is fast enough now that she is hanging some of her flip changeups. Before her flip change would come in and drop in a bucket. Now she is throwing a slow fastball (no drop)."

I'm not sure what this means. In general the flip change will have 6-12 spin (backspin), not sure how your DD is throwing it as a slow fastball unless she is caught between the flip and fastball mechanics at release?? My DD is similar to Coach James, where she has some side spin 8-2 spin (as seen by the catcher) and the ball tends to move slowly down and away from right handed batters. She tries to put some "flip" on the ball and her natural release is across her body.

I would gun her and see what the difference is between her fastball and change-up. As mentioned above there should be a dramatic fall off on speed with the c/u. Was watching the replay of the PGF 14U championship game and the if the pitchers were throwing 58mph, the c/u was around low 40's.

Have her stand 25 feet away from you align her body 45degree from the target and do arm circles only, focusing on the back of the hand mechanics from 12:00 to 6:00 and finishing across her body. Then compare and contrast that doing the same thing using her fastball mechanics. She might be getting caught in between pitches because she is not committing fully to the c/u mechanics.