So called experts and their bad advice

[BoardMember]

Thank Hitter. I do have that info someone on my hard drive. I point to it often times when a young aspiring pitchers parent insists that IF the child wants them to pay for lessons, they MUST practice throwing 4-5 times a week. Its been my experience that as this study states, overuse is the number one cause of shoulder injury in the windmill motion........

The fact that external rotation is the primary "actor" in overhand throwing, and internal rotation is the primary "actor" of the windmill pitch helps us understand the differences in the motion. As the over hand thrower releases, the arm/hand turn away from the body. Where in the underhand motion the arm/hand turn INTO the body.

So the study makes sense from the point of view that external rotation injuries are most common in overhand throwing and internal rotation injury is more common in underhand throwing.......

Thanks again for posting that..........

 

[abbygale]

The fact that external rotation is the primary "actor" in overhand throwing, and internal rotation is the primary "actor" of the windmill pitch helps us understand the differences in the motion. As the over hand thrower releases, the arm/hand turn away from the body. Where in the underhand motion the arm/hand turn INTO the body.


.........

I don't think that this gets enough attention (for us beginners) regarding the mechanics of throwing overhand vs. underhand. It is probably just me but my dd sometimes gets a lot of inside/out spin when she throws underhand but with what I think now could be described as a final overhand type snap. I think/hope that I am understanding what might be causing this.

 

[halskinner]

BM,

When I read your response I at first thought maybe you had spotted something I had missed all these years. On further review of the video of me pitching, I believe I am throwing with the submarine wind up. And, yes, I am at around 3:00 at landing foot touchdown with that wind up, AS IS ANYONE ELSE THAT USES IT CORRECTLY. Now I think I understand why you dissected the video and only used a portion of it.

I cannot speak for other instructors and their training methods. However, most of the time when just starting to learn new movement pitches, that will be thrown as a leap and drag pitcher, (curveball, for example) I would start out a young student throwing it as a step style at first. No aggressive speed at that point, not in the wind up or stride. Why? Because it can throw the pitcher’s timing off somewhat.

Once their timing is good / better, we speed things up and go to throwing it as a leap and drag pitch.

The timing on the submarine wind up is very different from the double pump wind up and straight out of the glove. Which way the ball is facing at near 12:00 for the submarine is also very different from the rest. Maybe you didn’t notice that either.

You did not notice it was a step style pitch I was throwing or the position of the throwing hand at near 12:00.

With the video of the young student I used, she was just starting to learn those pitches and we were at that point I mentioned earlier; we were not aggressive with anything at those points, not until she was more comfortable with them and the timing issues were better. If you recall, I mentioned she was just starting to learn these things in those videos but you either failed to note that or did not want to note that in your response.

As in anything else in life, there are those that can talk-the-talk and there are those that can walk-the-walk. Every now and then, you run into someone that can do both.

Which of those three categories you fall into, people will have to decide that for themselves. I have my own opinion but that’s all it is, just my opinion.

Ken, no need to make any more threats, if you still want to suspend me permanently, now would be the time.

I wish everyone the best.

Hal

 

[Mike]

Hey Ken, are we allowed to pick sides and vote.... surviver style.

 

[BoardMember]

BM,

When I read your response I at first thought maybe you had spotted something I had missed all these years. On further review of the video of me pitching, I believe I am throwing with the submarine wind up. And, yes, I am at around 3:00 at landing foot touchdown with that wind up, AS IS ANYONE ELSE THAT USES IT CORRECTLY. Now I think I understand why you dissected the video and only used a portion of it.

Hal, I've already told you that I learned to pitch in a league that didn't allow full revolution windmill. IE, we were NOT allowed to take the arm up the front of the circle........We were only allow to "rock it up" the back of the circle, and NO higher then 12:00. In fact the first year we were only allow to rock up to 9:00. So I'm very familiar with what you call the submarine windup.....

The simple fact is the timing of plant to release DOESN'T change. I just happened to have that video on my hard drive from previous thread showing your internal rotation delivery mechanics.

I cannot speak for other instructors and their training methods. However, most of the time when just starting to learn new movement pitches, that will be thrown as a leap and drag pitcher, (curveball, for example) I would start out a young student throwing it as a step style at first. No aggressive speed at that point, not in the wind up or stride. Why? Because it can throw the pitcher’s timing off somewhat.

Once their timing is good / better, we speed things up and go to throwing it as a leap and drag pitch.

So how does this "square" with your assertion that aggressive stride distance will cause the ball to travel TO FAR into the downswing past you 1:00-1:30 plant position? Now your saying that the step style pitcher WILL be at 3:00?.....Wouldn't you admit that the step style pitcher gets their foot down WAY earlier than the leap and dragger?........

It makes NO SENSE that the step style pitcher WILL be at 3:00 at plant, and the leap and drag pitcher will be at 1:00-1:30. When clearly the leap and drag pitcher's arm, according to you, travels FURTHER.........In fact it's just not true.....they both approach 3:00 at plant. In the best mechanics, the body times it that way Hal........

The timing on the submarine wind up is very different from the double pump wind up and straight out of the glove. Which way the ball is facing at near 12:00 for the submarine is also very different from the rest. Maybe you didn’t notice that either.

Which way the ball is facing has zero bearing on the arm position at Plant Hal.........

You did not notice it was a step style pitch I was throwing or the position of the throwing hand at near 12:00.

Of course I did. I threw that way to over 2 years.......I've already mentioned that.......

There was a video on your youtube channel of you throwing full windmill Hal. The timing was the same. When I just went to grab it and show you that the timing is the same, but I see you've removed ALL pitching video from your channel. Including video of you throwing full windmill. I can only speculate as to why you've all the sudden removed video that has been "public" for sometime now........

So how about Mr. Hillhouse?.......What is his plant timing?........

This stuff isn't a "coincedence" Hal.........

With the video of the young student I used, she was just starting to learn those pitches and we were at that point I mentioned earlier; we were not aggressive with anything at those points, not until she was more comfortable with them and the timing issues were better. If you recall, I mentioned she was just starting to learn these things in those videos but you either failed to note that or did not want to note that in your response.

The fact that she was just learning the curve ball has nothing what so ever to do it Hal. Here again you are telling us that she will become MORE aggresive, and we're supposed to believe her arm will travel less further/faster through the circle when she does?.......

Look Hal. Its a matter of passing GOOD information vs. bad. I didn't dig this grave.....You did.....

I posted one of my students just as I posted one of yours. They are BOTH very good IMO.......

As I told previously. I chose NOT to challenge your information directly to avoid this type of confrontation when I stated that approaching 3:00 was optimal. Because I believe you are a good instructor........The mear fact that I challenged your arm postion assertion didn't/doesn't change that........Hopefully you've gained some knowledge here that will only serve to make you THAT MUCH better........

"Whipping post vs. Pulling post" Hal. You......And your students are using correct mechanics......You just didn't know it........

As in anything else in life, there are those that can talk-the-talk and there are those that can walk-the-walk. Every now and then, you run into someone that can do both.

Which of those three categories you fall into, people will have to decide that for themselves. I have my own opinion but that’s all it is, just my opinion.

Hopefully your opinion is formed based on what I've presented for people on here. I know my opinion of your ability to instruct hasn't changed one bit........Sincerely.......

FYI, I read your "non-confrontational" posts all the time. They are good. And Informative.......And often fun to read.......And I've agreed with you MUCH more often then not.......

Keep up the good work. We're all here for the same reason.........

 

[Cannonball]

Wow, talk about a shocker. My dd threw a pitch last night in practice and is now hurt. Her shoulder! I'm scared to death as a parent and believe that we (DD and myself) have taken all of the steps to prevent injury. DD is devestated today. For those that don't know, my dd is not, in my opinion, a pitcher but works harder than 99% of all of the kids I've ever coached. Gosh, I have a sick feeling!

 

[BoardMember]

Wow, talk about a shocker. My dd threw a pitch last night in practice and is now hurt. Her shoulder! I'm scared to death as a parent and believe that we (DD and myself) have taken all of the steps to prevent injury. DD is devestated today. For those that don't know, my dd is not, in my opinion, a pitcher but works harder than 99% of all of the kids I've ever coached. Gosh, I have a sick feeling!

Sorry to hear that CB. Hopefully it's not serious and her recovery is quick......

 

[JC heir]

Sorry to hear that CB- Please keep us posted on her recovery.

 

[sluggers]

CB--sorry to hear it. If the pain is in the front of the shoulder, then she probably strained her biceps tendon. She needs to rest her arm.

Boardmember: I certainly appreciate your input on this board. You are an exceptionally clear thinker about pitching. You can express yourself very well. Also, your willingness to share information is admirable.

 

[mkral]

CB

Please keep us posted on your DD.
You and your DD are in our thoughts for a smooth and easy recovery here in Iowa. Hopefully it is something minor that simple rest will cure.

Good Luck!!

Mike