How could the top hand be fairly passive? Each finger, hand, elbow has some value in the swing mechanics. For me the commitment to swing starts with the back elbow beginning to lower as the lead elbow begins to make a good first move forward and up like the elbow was going up a ramp. The knob of the bat is moving forward in my mind and I hope I can control the angle of the bat as my hands are moving forward. Take away the fairly passive top hand and what is lost? The hands and elbows, arms etc are trying to function as a single unit at the same time. Again look at the complex movement that is required and explain how it happens in your mind and then how to communicate it to our students. Just saying the bat head goes rearward is like explaining a bullet just came out of the barrel and there are consequences for both actions depending on where the BARREL is pointed if you get my meaning ie hollow points, blue tip, jacketed. The size of the bat and your ability to communicate to your student what it should look like and feel like is your ability to teach hand path and hitting. It is easy to see and the art comes from the ability to teach it. Forearm strength is the last on our list of must haves, flowing to the ball, weight shift and hand path are key facets to the hitters seeing what we teach and feeling what we teach and fixing it and that comes from being a teacher and Crystl Bustos does that very well at her clinics and individual instructions. If you could talk hitting with Bonds for $90 an hour would you do it? If you could talk hitting with Bustos for $90 dollars an hour why would you not do it, especially if she could make it measurable and observable and show you how to test for it? Most who could take the opportunity do not and maybe they fear learning from a female is too humbling of an experience...there loss!
radial deviation
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Yeah that would interesting.
Interesting.... 
I’m confused! The kinetic chain is irrelevant and the multiple torque of the hands is where the focus of teaching should be because the body will natural configure itself to optimize these actions while double firing the hips as a consequence in order to produce early and late bat speed and the ability to make late adjustments after the hands and forearms have caused the bat to move 110 degrees backwards in the one and only MLB pattern?
In the second Mankin clip he specifically states, “The thumb is applying an outward force”. If the thumb is applying an outward force wouldn’t that cause the wrist to roll? Wouldn’t it be better to say a force is being applied at the thumb? Wouldn’t this be better described as a force being applied further up the kinetic chain that is creating pressure at the thumb and transferring that force to the bat?
Mankin also talks about the top hand forearm rotating. If that were the case wouldn’t we see the forearm twisting away from the upper arm – external rotation of the forearm? How else would the forearm rotate with the elbow slotted to accelerate the bat backwards? Wouldn’t such an action cause the bathead to fly out towards the lefty batter’s box? Wouldn’t it be more appropriate to say the forearm is rotated?
In the Lynn Blake clip he mentions that it feels like one thing but it is caused by something else. He specifically states that it is incorrect to try to make the hands do the action.
In all cases a proximal action creates a distal feel. The teach is turn in such a manner that your rear forearm IS rotated to X position at lag; you will likely feel like you are putting pressure on the bat with your top hand thumb. As opposed to push out with your thumb while rotating your forearm and let the body figure out the best way to do it.
An action and an associated feeling vs. feel like you are accelerating the bat backwards and hope for the best.
In the second Mankin clip he specifically states, “The thumb is applying an outward force”. If the thumb is applying an outward force wouldn’t that cause the wrist to roll? Wouldn’t it be better to say a force is being applied at the thumb? Wouldn’t this be better described as a force being applied further up the kinetic chain that is creating pressure at the thumb and transferring that force to the bat?
Mankin also talks about the top hand forearm rotating. If that were the case wouldn’t we see the forearm twisting away from the upper arm – external rotation of the forearm? How else would the forearm rotate with the elbow slotted to accelerate the bat backwards? Wouldn’t such an action cause the bathead to fly out towards the lefty batter’s box? Wouldn’t it be more appropriate to say the forearm is rotated?
In the Lynn Blake clip he mentions that it feels like one thing but it is caused by something else. He specifically states that it is incorrect to try to make the hands do the action.
In all cases a proximal action creates a distal feel. The teach is turn in such a manner that your rear forearm IS rotated to X position at lag; you will likely feel like you are putting pressure on the bat with your top hand thumb. As opposed to push out with your thumb while rotating your forearm and let the body figure out the best way to do it.
An action and an associated feeling vs. feel like you are accelerating the bat backwards and hope for the best.
No. I posted a video clip of her on another site several weeks ago, when she was "pushing". I plan to post another video clip of her on the same site in a few weeks showing her progress.
I'm getting a digital camcorder for Christmas
SB-
I assume you think the MLB swing that mankin shows will "hit the net" and you think this lengthens the swing. Is this a difference between men and women or should the men be trying to miss the net too ?
What other men vs women swing mechanics do you emphasize if any ?
Tell me what you mean by "the elbows working together" in post #20, is this the same as Epsteins back elbow down and front elbow up or something different ?
Also fill me in on what you think is missing in the Mankin swing/clip description, then I can take a crack at describing the swing/feel/teaching,
batsic -
thanks for reading up. Now I think you are trying to force a faulty interpretation of the worde=s rather than one that explores how they can work, but that is your choice., For example, when mankin talks about the thumb applying force he is pretty clear thatb that force is coming from rolling the forearm (supination) as opposed to being a "hand action". I suspect you knew this.
here is a key part of Mankin's description:
See the second recent tht video, first 1':30"
YouTube - MrBatSpeed's Channel
" as the [back] elbow lowers the forearm has to rotate to apply an outward force at the thumb area.............he's not trying to lower the elbow, he's trying to rotate the forearm".
Are the rest of your interpretations of this quality ?
I assume you think the MLB swing that mankin shows will "hit the net" and you think this lengthens the swing. Is this a difference between men and women or should the men be trying to miss the net too ?
What other men vs women swing mechanics do you emphasize if any ?
Tell me what you mean by "the elbows working together" in post #20, is this the same as Epsteins back elbow down and front elbow up or something different ?
Also fill me in on what you think is missing in the Mankin swing/clip description, then I can take a crack at describing the swing/feel/teaching,
batsic -
thanks for reading up. Now I think you are trying to force a faulty interpretation of the worde=s rather than one that explores how they can work, but that is your choice., For example, when mankin talks about the thumb applying force he is pretty clear thatb that force is coming from rolling the forearm (supination) as opposed to being a "hand action". I suspect you knew this.
here is a key part of Mankin's description:
See the second recent tht video, first 1':30"
YouTube - MrBatSpeed's Channel
" as the [back] elbow lowers the forearm has to rotate to apply an outward force at the thumb area.............he's not trying to lower the elbow, he's trying to rotate the forearm".
Are the rest of your interpretations of this quality ?
In the second Mankin clip he specifically states, “The thumb is applying an outward force”. If the thumb is applying an outward force wouldn’t that cause the wrist to roll? Wouldn’t it be better to say a force is being applied at the thumb? Wouldn’t this be better described as a force being applied further up the kinetic chain that is creating pressure at the thumb and transferring that force to the bat?
We do not teach our students to hold the bat in the top hand where it would be back so far that the thumb would have any bearing as to torque. Simply take your top hand and hold it palm up and take your bottom hand using the index finger and thumb and place it over the forearm of the top hand. Now take your ring finger and social finger only and touch the palm of your hand and what do you feel? The muscles on either side of the top hand forearm will activate and you can feel it. Now repeat and only use the index finger and thumb and you will feel a slight movement only on the thumb side of the forearm. We call the ring and social fingers grippers ( it shares a common tendon) and the thumb and index fingers balancers. We hold the bat forward of the index pad on the hand so the bat stays out of the back of the hand.
We hold the bat in the bottom hand where the fingers join at the palm of the hand and the top hand will be offset a little where the finger knuckles will line up offset to where my wedding ring is. We do not want to restrict the bat from moving by either having it so far back in the hand or allowing the thumb to clamp down on top of the index finger. Using a Swing Speed Radar we measured the grip we teach is 2 to 4 MPH faster than holding the bat further back in the hand and we feel it allows more bat control. We tie a piece of saran wrap, after twisting it on to the index finger like a ring and have our students place the bat in front of the wrap and at an angle across the hand to get them use to trying this.
Try your grip, what ever it may be and get to contact and let someone push rearward on the bat and see if you can hold them from moving you. Now try holding the bat in the top hand as described and see if they can move you. Now repeat with your head up slightly and then down as if tracking the ball and see which way feels stronger. Head up or head down?
Mankin also talks about the top hand forearm rotating. If that were the case wouldn’t we see the forearm twisting away from the upper arm – external rotation of the forearm? How else would the forearm rotate with the elbow slotted to accelerate the bat backwards? Wouldn’t such an action cause the bathead to fly out towards the lefty batter’s box? Wouldn’t it be more appropriate to say the forearm is rotated?
In my opinion as the knob of the bat is moving forward you are transitioning the bat head from angled to rearward as this is taking place. As the elbow is moving downward or slotting I see the forearm pivoting with the wrist and the bat head getting downward to bat lag. The lead arm elbow must be working at the same time. We see the lead arm elbow moving forward making a good first move of 2 to 4 inches and the elbow going slightly forward and up like it is going up a ramp. It does not move like a chicken wing, only upward. As this is happening the shoulders are turning , rotating, opening and this keeps the hands inside the path of the ball. If the elbows move linear too far I feel the hands do tend to drift over or towards home plate. If you do it slow enough you will even see the baby finger and ring finger coming off the bat as the top hand can not hold that position. With the elbows not working as a unit the swing does not work very well. We also believe the back elbow must clear the body completely. Try holding a rope and let someone stand behind you and slowly get to bat lag with the rope with a little tension on it and you should feel very powerful and be able to pull the person forward. Now simply get back to that position and get your back elbow in close and you will feel the difference and you will not be able to pull that person forward
We do not teach our students to hold the bat in the top hand where it would be back so far that the thumb would have any bearing as to torque. Simply take your top hand and hold it palm up and take your bottom hand using the index finger and thumb and place it over the forearm of the top hand. Now take your ring finger and social finger only and touch the palm of your hand and what do you feel? The muscles on either side of the top hand forearm will activate and you can feel it. Now repeat and only use the index finger and thumb and you will feel a slight movement only on the thumb side of the forearm. We call the ring and social fingers grippers ( it shares a common tendon) and the thumb and index fingers balancers. We hold the bat forward of the index pad on the hand so the bat stays out of the back of the hand.
We hold the bat in the bottom hand where the fingers join at the palm of the hand and the top hand will be offset a little where the finger knuckles will line up offset to where my wedding ring is. We do not want to restrict the bat from moving by either having it so far back in the hand or allowing the thumb to clamp down on top of the index finger. Using a Swing Speed Radar we measured the grip we teach is 2 to 4 MPH faster than holding the bat further back in the hand and we feel it allows more bat control. We tie a piece of saran wrap, after twisting it on to the index finger like a ring and have our students place the bat in front of the wrap and at an angle across the hand to get them use to trying this.
Try your grip, what ever it may be and get to contact and let someone push rearward on the bat and see if you can hold them from moving you. Now try holding the bat in the top hand as described and see if they can move you. Now repeat with your head up slightly and then down as if tracking the ball and see which way feels stronger. Head up or head down?
Mankin also talks about the top hand forearm rotating. If that were the case wouldn’t we see the forearm twisting away from the upper arm – external rotation of the forearm? How else would the forearm rotate with the elbow slotted to accelerate the bat backwards? Wouldn’t such an action cause the bathead to fly out towards the lefty batter’s box? Wouldn’t it be more appropriate to say the forearm is rotated?
In my opinion as the knob of the bat is moving forward you are transitioning the bat head from angled to rearward as this is taking place. As the elbow is moving downward or slotting I see the forearm pivoting with the wrist and the bat head getting downward to bat lag. The lead arm elbow must be working at the same time. We see the lead arm elbow moving forward making a good first move of 2 to 4 inches and the elbow going slightly forward and up like it is going up a ramp. It does not move like a chicken wing, only upward. As this is happening the shoulders are turning , rotating, opening and this keeps the hands inside the path of the ball. If the elbows move linear too far I feel the hands do tend to drift over or towards home plate. If you do it slow enough you will even see the baby finger and ring finger coming off the bat as the top hand can not hold that position. With the elbows not working as a unit the swing does not work very well. We also believe the back elbow must clear the body completely. Try holding a rope and let someone stand behind you and slowly get to bat lag with the rope with a little tension on it and you should feel very powerful and be able to pull the person forward. Now simply get back to that position and get your back elbow in close and you will feel the difference and you will not be able to pull that person forward
There are two ways to slot the back elbow. The way you describe above results in a "push". A bad "push". The result is a very amateurish swing. In the high level swing the back elbow slots automatically as the hands turn over to arc the bat head backward. The result is a "whip" instead of a "push".
The "net" exercise you describe above illustrates a complete lack of understanding of how the hands work in the high level swing. I just tried your net exercise and my bat head does not hit the net. If a hitter had a very vertical stance, the bat head might skim the net at most.
Regarding bat drag, when you arc the bat head backwards, the elbow does not get ahead of the hands and there is no bat drag. Applying THT actually helps prevent bat drag.
I'm not sure what you mean by excessive torque. There is nothing excessive about THT. If done correctly in combination with shoulder tilt and rotation, it is almost not perceptible. Which is why most people don't teach it. I bet most people on here had no idea that there was as much difference in bat angles between professional and amateur hitters as was pointed out by Mankin in the clips Tom provided. You have to swing a bat and perform the movements to understand what the best hitters in the world are doing.
Check out frames 10 & 11 of the Pujols' clip. This is the turn over of the hands I'm talking about. If you take out those two frames, you get an amateurish barrel path similar to Bush. Those two frames are the difference between a very bad/ugly "push" like Bush, and a high level whip like Pujols.
- Nov 29, 2009
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just try this take a bat from what I call the trigger position which is the bat head pointed back behind the head hands at or slightly below armpit, thenj ust pull the bat with your lead hand in a way that the flat part of the knob of the bat is going toward the point of contact with the ball your top hand being passive and along for the ride at this point. Now tell me where your elbow that you are worried about ends up?
