radial deviation

[ssarge]

No matter what that is awesome. I am impressed. Based on your description I would say she is good at making contact on the inside corner of the ball, second she may not crowd the plate but is a little tight. A young lady with her length has an advantage when used properly because of that length. Thats why most MLB players are 6' 1" and taller. They are able to address both sides of the plate with basically the same swing.

Thanks for the kind words. Her stance is about 9" inside the plate, so she crowds a little. she's listed at 5' 10", but that's a vanity listing on her part. She is just a little under 6'0". I wouldn't call her thin, but she's fairly lean.

She had a decent first year. Average dropped 40 points in the last three weeks as she had a bad hand injury. She ended at .282 with the 8 out and 31 RBI, in 41 games. Got some post-season honors. Had a hard time cracking the starting lineup until about 12 games in, as the girl in front of her ( a junior) was pretty good, too. Her first college AB was a PH against Danielle Lawrey of (eventual National Champion) Washington. The game was on the line, and she K'd. Had a couple of good swings, though, and a memorable first AB.

She has been working like a demon in the weight room, and we'll see if it helps. She had 8-9 balls within 10 feet of the fence last year. The difference between 8 HR nad 16 is simply stunning at the D-I level, plus she'll hopefully play more than 41 games. But she also will be batting 3rd or 4th instead of 6th, and she is going to get pitched differently. We'll see.

What I teach is basically the same inside and outside except for depth and the where extension is done and applied. The ball is pitched outside, the ball is hit oppo intentionally and hard. By oppo I mean for a RH batter right center gap to the line. And you can not do this without tophand push from contact to extension in the right direction. Extension is always achieved in the direction you want the ball to go. Even though it will still seem like from the momentum of the bat head after full extension that is not what is happening. Like I said before Sarge I am very impressed. We have slight differences of mechanics but really not that much. it sounds like we teach alot of the same things but different terms and beliefs in actual forces.

Yes, a lot is the same. The top hand push is something I can't quite get a grasp of. I find an enormous amount of extension and whip are attained late in the swing when the bottom wrist hinge-angle releases. May be talking about the same thing and describing it differently.

Really appreciate the kind words about DD. I am proud of her.

Best,

Scott

 

[ssarge]

we are teaching them how to transfer their weight and build momentum. When we load and go to toe touch we go negative to positive and in throwing we want to build that momentum to explode to throw the ball. For many of the girls this is their first time in feeling that weight shift or changing of direction and hips and legs working.

Agree with this Howard. I typically don't use "negative Move" and "Positive Move" as terms. I see the swing as a loading cycle, followed by an unloading cycle, with some overlap. But ideally, continuous movement throughout.

Best,

Scott

 

[tom.guerry]

sarge -

I like a lot of the H-I cues like bypass, snap the pole, swivel/etc. These have been proven to work in before and after video which shows kids getting into pattern.

You should look at the video. It is transparently available for free at a number of sites like BBF and BBD.

Last time JJA cited his qualifications it was aerospace engineer. That is not a physicist. If he's a physicist, he is guilty of malpractice. Engineers can be pretty out of it too. I always remember back to those engineers who claimed foam could not have put holes in the shuttle wings after Challenger went down. Seriously, many NASA engineers had no clue about basic physics like that.

Then there was the JJA faux pas where he claimed (based on his faulty reading of Mankin's theory and experimental results, and getting his equations wrong) that jack's theory should predict a batspeed of 130 MPH. That was a good one.

When Mankin says:

"Mechanics that accelerate the bat rearward produces a much higher load to shoulder rotation than a static bat. Therefore, the angular rate of hip rotation will be greater during the initiation phase than shoulder rotation."

You should listen. That fits with the MLB swing pattern way better than anything adhering to PCR guidelines.

next thing you know JJA will tell us bumble bees can't fly.

 

[tom.guerry]

sarge also asked about switch hitters. there actually is crossover research showing motor organization for the dominant arm will influence/encourage the same program to develop when using the nondominant arm.

beyond that, take Williams whose arm action sequence is the same as all other greats even though his dominant arm is lead arm.

I alos do not but the exceptional athlete is unique argument. what the golf pattern experience suggests is that the more pure the pattern, the better the swing, the less out of position elements have to be compensated for and the more consistent the swing.


so when you look at Bonds, he has pure MLB pattern in addition to all his experience and mental mastery etc.

sarge also speculated:

"I think the rate of hip rotation will be greater than the rate of shoulder rotation during the initiation phase without doing ANYTHING. Because the shoulders are wider than the hips, and that creates a greater radius of gyration for the shoulders."


In this case what the golf literature suggests is that in a 1 plane PCR tilt(bend at waist/anterior tilt)and turn swing, the degree of separation is determined primarily by how different the planes of rotation are with increased separation coming with being more bent over at the waist.

The trouble with PCR is that the swing has to be shortened to work by narrowing the spread of the legs so the hips can spin faster. in the MLB pattern the legs spread and turn with the hips for better leverage.

the idea that separation is either "preset" (Nyman) or happens because shoulders lag because they are wider is bogus if you want to swing in the MLB pattern.

 

[tom.guerry]

Lots of juicy stuff from sarge, thanks.

sarge also said:

"Tom, you were a GLOBAL MODERATOR at the site that authored PCR. How can you reconcile your current scathing criticism (to which you are entitled, if that is your opinion) with your insistence that you have always believed just what you believe now?"

The specific reason I left the site was my criticism of information that Nyman "believed" that I felt would harm kids trying to swing in the MLB pattern.

Specifically it was Nyman's supposed debunking of the rearward start to the swing which is necessary to elimnate "drag" which is one of the bete noir's of the PCR swing.

The other big bete noir is the hip slide which is related to the concept of "rotating" around the front hip.

These two things, lack of rearward acceleration to resist and getting the weight to the front early for "rotation" will kill the MLB pattern. See Mankin's rearward arc info and see Ethier's weight shift comments, for example.

This is the specific disagreement that caused me to separate from Nyman/setpro as you well remember:

Putting another nail in the THT coffin.... - SETPRO Smart Power Training Forum

Anything else you feel the need to rehash again over and over ?

 

[ssarge]

"Tom, you were a GLOBAL MODERATOR at the site that authored PCR. How can you reconcile your current scathing criticism (to which you are entitled, if that is your opinion) with your insistence that you have always believed just what you believe now?"

The specific reason I left the site was my criticism of information that Nyman "believed" that I felt would harm kids trying to swing in the MLB pattern.

The specific reason you left the site was that Nyman fired you, but as I have said previously, I don't think he behaved well in that circumstance, and you had a right to be hurt and angry. But what does WHY you left have to do with my comments? My point remains: you believed in PCR enough to be a moderator at the site which defined it. Now you consider it anethma. Yet insist your beliefs have never changed. How can that all work together?


Look, Tom, I've made my point, here. The battle is fatiguing, and pointless. You believe that theoretical blending of information from a thousand hitting sources has great value. And feel that personally working with kids is not necessary to validate your theories.

I feel that working with kids is paramount, and am proud of the success the kids I have the privilege to work with have attained. I believe that success validates what I believe. You obviously disagree, and marginalize that success.

I've read everything you have ever posted or linked, believe it or not. You, on the other hand, have NOT done what I asked, and walked over to the cage in San Rafael to work with a kid. I think that is regretable.

So there we are. I'll be checking out on this discussion. Knock 'em dead, Tom.

 

[ssarge]

Tom:

the idea that separation is either "preset" (Nyman) or happens because shoulders lag because they are wider is bogus if you want to swing in the MLB pattern.

Where did I say either of these things in the context of discussing separation? Go read the context again on my radius of gyration comment (see below).

I REALLY hate it when you tell people what I "really" mean. Because you almost never get it right. Applies elsewhere too. That is the ONE universalism which you have managed.

Mankin, via Tom.Guerry: Mechanics that accelerate the bat rearward produces [sic] a much higher load to shoulder rotation than a static bat. Therefore, the angular rate of hip rotation will be greater during the initiation phase than shoulder rotation.

ssarge responded: I think the rate of hip rotation will be greater than the rate of shoulder rotation during the initiation phase without doing ANYTHING. Because the shoulders are wider than the hips, and that creates a greater radius of gyration for the shoulders.

Where is mention of separation? And now I AM done.

 

[Wellphyt]

Wellphyt:

My skepticism continues, and was honed by over a year of using Mankin's material with a large number of students. Obviously, that limitation could have been mine, and not the fault of the materials. But my experience was seriously profoundly different than yours. Especially when it came to the swings the girls brought into games / live hitting.

Consequently, clips of you or your daughter demonstrating this success would be valuable to see. Before and after would be great. If you have achieved an improved frame count or demonstrably more bat speed, that would be persuasive to others (beyond just me), I would think.


The experience you are having with your daughter is great. Treasure it, because it seems to end very quickly.

Do you have opportunity to work with hitters beyond your daughter? Would love to hear about the results, how they are performing in age group or college play, etc. Not trying to put you on the spot. Well maybe I am, a little, because as I said, I have had a different experience with your materials than have you. But I think it helps everone to evaluate the efficacy of the information by seeing that it is working.

If you have provided this information previously, I apologize for having missed it. Please don't recreate it, just point me to it.

Thanks,

Scott

I've never posted a clip of my daughter on this site. I may in the future if I feel others who are still genuinely searching for answers would benefit. Hopefully Santa will bring me a digital camcorder . As of right now I plan to post additional clips of her sometime in January on another site I frequent.

Your frame count comment indicates you likely wouldn't analyze her swing correctly anyways. That's not a criticism, but more of an observation regarding your methodology. Meaning we will likely not agree on the use of frame counts to measure whether or not a swing is high level or not.

Since you raised the subject of video clips of my daughter, I would be very interested in seeing some clips of your daughter to get a better idea of what you teach. If you could point me to the location where they are posted here on this site, or perhaps a different site, I will make sure to check them out.

I do work with other girls whose parents have asked. I do it strickly as a favor. They've offered to pay me but thus far I've declined. Even though I get better results with the girls than the local instructors, I'm not going to charge money until I get video confirmation of my daughter swinging in the high level pattern (Bonds, Pujols, Manny, Bustos) against live pitching. IMO, that should be a minimum requirement before any hitting instructor accepts money or sells hitting dvds. The reality is that it's not that difficult to improve the mechanics of the typical FP player. For most of the girls the bar starts out pretty low. Add in short fences and high tech minus 8 bats and if a player is gifted enough athletically, they can hit D1 college pitching with amateur mechanics.

Megan Bush is a good example. Here are some career highlights for Megan Bush:

Career Honors: NFCA All-Southeast Region in 2009 … All-SEC Second Team in 2009 … WCWS All-Tournament Team in 2009 … All-SEC Freshmen Team in 2008 …

Career Highlights: Currently ranks third in Florida record books for a .593 career slugging percentage and is tied for fourth with 29 career home runs … Recorded a .712 slugging percentage in 2009, good for third all-time at UF, and a .447 on-base percentage, which ranks sixth … Graces single-season home run list twice with 16 in 2009 (T4th) and 13 in 2008 (T7th), which is also the freshman home run record.

With all that success, does anyone honestly believe that her swing as seen on the video clip posted on here is high level? Can anyone honestly say that Bush's swing is high level in the relm of a hitter like Bustos?

When I teach hitting, the standard that I set for myself is the Bustos swing and not the Bush swing. Nothing personal against Bush, she is a heck of a ball player. But the fact remains that Bustos' mechanics are far more efficient. So, if I'm going to go to the trouble of teaching my daughter to hit, I might as well use the player with the better mechanics as my model.

Lastly, "THT" or "early rearward movement of the bat head", are not teachings exclusive to Mankin. The movement is part of the high level swing and can be seen in slow motion video of the best hitters. Mankin, just happens to be the person that has done the best job of analyzing it and pointing it out. The fact is, if you want a swing that approaches the MLB pattern, you have to use the hands to turn the bat like Bustos does.

 

[tom.guerry]

sarge said:

ssarge responded: I think the rate of hip rotation will be greater than the rate of shoulder rotation during the initiation phase without doing ANYTHING. Because the shoulders are wider than the hips, and that creates a greater radius of gyration for the shoulders.

Where is mention of separation? And now I AM done ?

My "theory" here is that if at "initiation" the hips turn faster than the shoulders then the result is likely to be more "separation"/"x-factor"/"body torque"/whatever you want to call it.

Capish ?

If you decide to come back, maybe you could bring JJA to go over his math and assumptions.

Another subject I have heard sarge express an interest in recently is "early batspeed" and its relation to the concept (remember, this is all "theory") of late adjustability. There is actually quantitative data here, maybe JJA could review things again.

JJA could start with the Rod Cross paper linked by hitter:

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/PUBLICATIONS/44.BatSwing.pdf


Note: "The swing of a bat can be analyzed approximately by treating the
system as a double pendulum, in which case all body segments
collapse into a single forearm pivoting about an axis at
one end. The other end of the forearm is attached by a hinge
to the implement being swung."

AND:

"The small positive couple required to start the swing of a
bat or a club is well known,"

See also summary, part4:

The physics of baseball

Rod Cross: "The batter needs to exert a small couple to get the swing started, using equal and opposite forces on the handle, otherwise the barrel of the bat will get left behind."





Then JJA could go back to the Nyman model which resembles this fused torso mass,connected arm, hinge and bat with a "spinal axis" of rotation for the torso mass/flywheel and the addition of a back arm mass attached to the bat via the equivalent of a top hand.



This model shows how a swing is "quickened" as Nyman himself admits during his explanation of the model. A significant, not IN signficant quickening effect.

Now this also gets into the argument about batSPEED v "quickness". To understand/organize data with regard to this, the old double pendulum model is NOT enough. In this case, we need to fall back on the "kinetic chain" concept and actual motionanlysis measures of the chain or "link". This also gets into BIOLOGICAL concepts like muscular force production and tissue elasticity.

The kinetic chain is thought of as producing sequential "summation of velocity" from proximal to distal body parts which consist of:

1- hip turn

2-torso turn

3 handpath

4 bat/clubhead path.

Note: "shoulders" are NOT TECHNICALLY considered to be one of the chain. Shoulders and arms can work in many ways associated with sequencing, etc.

The simplest way to MEASURE the summation/efficiency of the chain is by a so-called "kinematic" analysis where all that is measured is the angular acceleration/velocity of each segment over time. This is independent of the forces/actions that produce the acceleration.

What is seen as "quickness" is in the expected "speed gains" from link to link as measured by Zig Zigler for example ina large population of MLB hitters:

Bat Speed -- Baseball Hitting Forum


============

ZIG data:


According to Phil Cheetham, our founder and one of the country's leading biomechanical engineers, our findings show a direct relationship to the controlled increase in speed efficiently through each segment, ultimately impacting bat speed.

If the speed gain from the hips to the upper torso is in the correct range (not too high or low), there is an expectation of speed gain from the uppertoso to the arms and the arms to the bat.

For example if I get a speed gain of 200 degrees per second (dps) from my hips to my upper toso, I would expect to get a similar gain, 200 dps from my upper torso to my arms. I would then expect a large gain from my arms to my bat (800 dps or more). But if I release a large amount of energy during either or those first two segments, that energy cannot be transferred to my bat.

Example: I gain 300 dps from hips to uppertorso, and gain 300 dps from my uppertorso to arms, I may only gain 450 dps from my arms to my bat, resulting in a lower bat speed. That loss is only 150 dps. But 150 dps is approximately 10% of the athlete's pre-contact bat speed.

Equally important to the acceleration of the segments is the deceleration of each segment at the appropriate time. If I cannot decelerate each segment effectively, I will allow that segment to reach a higher speed. In essence, we would call this a power leak.

===================

COMMENT: So "quickness" and "early batspeed" can be seen as a way of sequencing and summing the chain such that the early links )hips and shoulder) do not OVER rotate, and the last bathead link has a LARGE GAIN.

I also put in the part about DECELERATION of links as this is a weakness of the theory. When Cheetham and others have looked for a benefit of rapid DEceleration in the golf swing it has NOT been found and this is addressed somewhat by the whip vs multiple firing theories of the chain which is not a discussion to have now.

====================

================

Now there is one other important concept regarding the chain which is the extreme importance not just of "x-factor"/separation, but more exactly "x-factor stretch in the downswing" which is the additional dynamic/controllable "cusp creating" last quick stretch of torso which results from "drop and tilt" as upper body (controlled by hand action with rearward bat aceleration) resists opening when hips fire at GO/"launch"/"initiation".

What is important here is to create a quick last stretch AND fire the bathead out JUST AS the stretch reverses which enables a combination of soft tissue elasticity and quick force production (stretch receptor reflexes/high degree of neural recruitment where large percentage of muscle cells fire together) for a quick adjustable launch of the bathead to contact with a generous intersecting "contact zone".

the x-factor STRETCH concept was first measured by Cheetham in golf, but he has measured it in baseball as well.

=====

So "early batspeed" means keeping the hands back and preparing for quick acceleration spatially early/behind the hitter after the bat has started rearward.

This gives more time for pitch recognition and adjustment. The locus of control/adjustment is in the feel of the hands as resistance is applied.

 

[ssarge]

My "theory" here is that if at "initiation" the hips turn faster than the shoulders then the result is likely to be more "separation"/"x-factor"/"body torque"/whatever you want to call it.

I know what your theory is.

Not my point, as I'll say AGAIN.

You referenced my quote as an inadequate mechanism for separation.

My quote was not ABOUT separation.

I pointed that out, asking you to refrain from doing that kind of thing.

You respond with more information about why my quote is about separation.

Still wasn't. Wasn't the context. Wasn't what I said.


Not going to play anymore Tom. I look forward to dialog with others on the site who actually teach kids. Dialog with you is fruitless, because it is apparently a mere game for you. An intellectual exercise which you refuse to use to actually help a kid learn to hit. Apparently, whoever has the most clever word play wins. Whoever uses the most pseudo-intellectial arguments, and links to the most marginally related articles wins. Whoever can best blend together information that the authors themselves don't believe is blendable, by explaining what the authors "really mean" wins.

You win.

But I wish you realized it is NOT a game for most everyone else. Everyone else works with hitters. Continuing to interact with you is a distraction - and I'm sure an irritant - for the people who really want to work with hitters. So out of courtesy to others on the site, I'm not going to do it.

If you decide to come back, maybe you could bring JJA to go over his math and assumptions.

I'm not going anywehere, I'm just not going to engage with you until you work with at least one kid in person.