How about getting on both the 2B and the 3B? One failed to cover a bag, and the other failed to have the presence of mind to recognize that and threw the ball in the outfield.
play at 2nd
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How about getting on both the 2B and the 3B? One failed to cover a bag, and the other failed to have the presence of mind to recognize that and threw the ball in the outfield.
- Feb 20, 2014
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to answer TJ's question nothing was said to 2b it is what it is. Like I said before there's a lot of people on this forum and there will be a lot of different opinions. Here is my opinion(and I know it's right all you have to do is ask me lol) if we tell the girls that they have to look at every base before they make a play there are going to be a lot runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs. This game and the girls get faster every year. Maybe she shouldn't have thrown it but the coach shouldn't have told her she made wrong play she was doing what her instincts and what her coaches have told her to do for years.
What was the outcome - how far did the runners advance? Was an OF backing it up or did it get past them?
As CB and TJ posted, this play is not the same as a C throwing on a SB. Experienced IFs develop an internal clock for these plays on how long it takes someone to cover the base so they can time/adjust their throw. They also know how much time they have to get an out at both bases.
If the runner was running on the pitch, they rarely have a shot at them. Another IF (e.g. C or SS) should help them out if they don't have a play on the lead runner. The best SS/3B combo my DD ever played with not only had exceptional fielding abilities, they communicated extremely well to get the proper out.
As CB and TJ posted, this play is not the same as a C throwing on a SB. Experienced IFs develop an internal clock for these plays on how long it takes someone to cover the base so they can time/adjust their throw. They also know how much time they have to get an out at both bases.
If the runner was running on the pitch, they rarely have a shot at them. Another IF (e.g. C or SS) should help them out if they don't have a play on the lead runner. The best SS/3B combo my DD ever played with not only had exceptional fielding abilities, they communicated extremely well to get the proper out.
medicpelle
You are looking live.....
This is the correct answer you are looking for period.
Need more details before I would say the coach was right or wrong. Where was the second baseman prior to the ball being hit, was she in her standard position, was she way up to cover a bunt, was she pulled around towards first for who was though to be a pull hitting lefty? What would have been the play if the runner was going on the pitch and the runner was already past the 2nd baseman and throwing to second would have been a moot point? We would expect our 3rd baseman to recognize this and go to first with the ball. Especially on a bang bang type play. I expect at 14u players to begin to recognize what's going on during the play and make decisions in a fluid manner, not by rote.
Too much missing info to really say what the correct play was, or to say if the coach was right or wrong.
Too much missing info to really say what the correct play was, or to say if the coach was right or wrong.
I know I'm in the minority here, but my philosophy on ground balls to the infield is to get the high percentage out. Always. 90% of the time that percentage play is at 1st base. Ground ball to the infield should *almost* always result in an out. Now, if there is a runner on 1st, ball hit to SS and it is a few steps to get to the bag for the force out....great. Get that lead runner. But otherwise, get it at 1st and say thank you to the other team for serving up that out. Maybe it is just the games that I've watched and the competition I've faced, but I have rarely seen infield DPs in softball. The bases are just too close together, imo, for there to be a high percentage chance of a ground-ball DP. But what I have seen are a lot of instances where a play is made at 2nd base and the ball is either thrown away, or the runner is safe anyways because of either good base-running or poor defense. Lets face it...a 1st baseman is ALWAYS going to be better prepared for a play at her base than a 2nd base or SS at their base just because the 1B player gets MANY more repetitions at that type of play.
So, if my choices are: Get the out at first with a 95%+ chance of getting an out or trying for the play at 2nd where I may have a 75% chance of getting an out, with a 25% chance of both runners being safe or the ball going to the outfield which will likely result in an extra base being given up, I'll take the 95%+ chance of the out. Yes, I have a runner on 2nd base, but I also have an out, and I'm good with that trade-off. I'll take that guarantee in *almost* any situation.
All that being said, however, that is *my* philosophy and the way I run my practices. What was right in the OP's situation all comes back to what was being practiced. Certainly they are running situational drills during practice, and runner on 1st base is one of the most commonly occurring situations, so what was being practiced? Was it to throw to second even if the second baseman is still in motion and not yet to 2nd? Was it to check before throwing? Was it to just get the out at first? Whatever was being practiced should be what the OP's DD was supposed to do. The mantra on this thread of "DD was right, coach was wrong" is way too simplistic.
So, if my choices are: Get the out at first with a 95%+ chance of getting an out or trying for the play at 2nd where I may have a 75% chance of getting an out, with a 25% chance of both runners being safe or the ball going to the outfield which will likely result in an extra base being given up, I'll take the 95%+ chance of the out. Yes, I have a runner on 2nd base, but I also have an out, and I'm good with that trade-off. I'll take that guarantee in *almost* any situation.
All that being said, however, that is *my* philosophy and the way I run my practices. What was right in the OP's situation all comes back to what was being practiced. Certainly they are running situational drills during practice, and runner on 1st base is one of the most commonly occurring situations, so what was being practiced? Was it to throw to second even if the second baseman is still in motion and not yet to 2nd? Was it to check before throwing? Was it to just get the out at first? Whatever was being practiced should be what the OP's DD was supposed to do. The mantra on this thread of "DD was right, coach was wrong" is way too simplistic.
Last time I heard a statement like that I lost both my doctor and my healthcare plan.
First off it's the 2nd baseman's fault for not covering the base. So it's her fault for letting runners on 1st and 2nd. However the 3rd is responsible for the result after that. I'm guessing either 2nd and 3rd or 3rd and a run. You have to make sure someone is on the way to the base.
As far as the comment to always go to first, I think as you get older you need to try and get lead runners. However, if you are going to go for lead runners you need to practice it. It takes a lot of reps for an infielder to make the right decisions, but it can be done. Our team always goes for the lead runner when it's a fairly safe out. We are on a new team (for us) and they turned a 3-6-3 double play at a recent tournament. The coach says when they are outside, the work on it a lot.
As far as the comment to always go to first, I think as you get older you need to try and get lead runners. However, if you are going to go for lead runners you need to practice it. It takes a lot of reps for an infielder to make the right decisions, but it can be done. Our team always goes for the lead runner when it's a fairly safe out. We are on a new team (for us) and they turned a 3-6-3 double play at a recent tournament. The coach says when they are outside, the work on it a lot.
I'm kinda shocked at all the people who don't see DP's in games... Typically it's the 6-4-3 that I see most often, a 5-4-3 is less likely to happen, but typically results in 5-4 Out and the turn is too slow to get the out at 1st, but they try it.
Maybe after 2 yrs 14U, 2 years 16U and now 18U I see plenty of DP's made so probably due to age and level of play as well.
Maybe after 2 yrs 14U, 2 years 16U and now 18U I see plenty of DP's made so probably due to age and level of play as well.
medicpelle
You are looking live.....
As much as I know I should not address this I am compelled to so here goes. While I know you stated you are in the minority and its your philosophy I need to rebut.
If you are a Rec or high level team and " a 1st baseman is ALWAYS going to be better prepared for a play at her base than a 2nd base or SS at their base just because the 1B player gets MANY more repetitions at that type of play." You have more problems then you know. That is just a ridiculous statement and can't even find the words to debate it.
"if there is a runner on 1st, ball hit to SS and it is a few steps to get to the bag for the force out....great. Get that lead runner. But otherwise, get it at 1st and say thank you to the other team for serving up that out."
As the opposing coach I would thank you as well for letting my player get 60' further because your middle infielders were not properly coached or given the confidence to make routine type plays to get the lead runner. Yes routine..1, 5, 6, and 4 are fully capable of checking the lead runner, checking then going to 3 if needed, or getting the lead runner on hard hit balls. My 12u girls this fall turned four 6-4-3 legit DP's in tournament competition and dozens of lead runners and yes we might have had a 2-3 bad throws but guess what my OF did their job and the runners did not advance. I still have the confidence in my pitching and D to get out of the inning. I would bring up getting lead runners on bunts but that's a whole other story.
"Get the out at first with a 95%+ chance of getting an out or trying for the play at 2nd where I may have a 75% chance of getting an out, with a 25% chance of both runners being safe or the ball going to the outfield which will likely result in an extra base being given up, I'll take the 95%+ chance of the out."
What is your calculated % of the run scoring from second with one out versus the runner from first scoring with one out?
I'm not sure what level you are watching or coaching but these are all things these young ladies should be taught at a young age even though they may not be physically or mentally able to accomplish what you are teaching but it prepares them for when they are physically and mentally able to do so and its not a foreign principle.
