No coaching allowed

[riseball]

Awesome, let the catcher call the game. Your DD learned some good stuff from her parents.

Good plan, because if they ever move beyond HS it does not work that way. So get the chance while you can. Catchers have way too much to do already and simply do not have the bandwidth to study video, formulate a game plan, and do what is needed to effectively call pitches in college.

 

[Doug Romrell]

Good plan, because if they ever move beyond HS it does not work that way. So get the chance while you can. Catchers have way too much to do already and simply do not have the bandwidth to study video, formulate a game plan, and do what is needed to effectively call pitches in college.

Clearly, given all those college softball games OILF has attended, she didn't notice in the vast majority of them, a coach was giving the pitching signals to the catcher to give to the pitcher. Go figure.

 

[riseball]

Clearly, given all those college softball games OILF has attended, she didn't notice in the vast majority of them, a coach was giving the pitching signals to the catcher to give to the pitcher. Go figure.

You spend 20+ years working your way up through the ranks to coach at a top tier school. You know the capabilities of your pitchers better than the pitchers themselves. You spend endless hours watching video of the opposition and analyzing stats. You agonize late into the night over the game plan for the double header tomorrow. Your job is on the line each and every season and your boss deals only in results, not excuses. Now turn it all over to a 20 year old kid carrying 18 hours who slept 5 hours last night because she was up studying.

 

[Doug Romrell]

I always tell my own teenage daughter, "Your brain will eventually fully develop." I don't say that to her because I'm mean. I'm serious, and she knows it. Her life experiences thus far don't add much depth at all in terms of wisdom. Further, it's amazing to me how many freshmen in college come to college thinking they know everything, yet they, on average, know next to nothing. The ones who are worth more than their salt are the ones who come to college curious, having open minds (sponges). But there are many who come and are not at all interested in actually learning something.

Yes, indeed, turning the game over to a teenager or 20-year-old kid is a huge mistake, generally.

 

[Greenmonsters]

You spend 20+ years working your way up through the ranks to coach at a top tier school. You know the capabilities of your pitchers better than the pitchers themselves. You spend endless hours watching video of the opposition and analyzing stats. You agonize late into the night over the game plan for the double header tomorrow. Your job is on the line each and every season and your boss deals only in results, not excuses. Now turn it all over to a 20 year old kid carrying 18 hours who slept 5 hours last night because she was up studying.

Is there anybody you know who claims that they, themselves, can call a game as well from the bench than they could from behind the plate? No argument that the coach has the time to watch video and develop the better game plan. Pass it on to the catcher who can implement it in consideration of their much more accurate observations of the pitcher's stuff, the umpires zone, and the hitters' subtle adjustments. Yes, it does require a smart, confident catcher with prior experience, which is the excuse that many coaches give for not delegating the responsibility.

Being a college coach does not automatically mean that someone is capable of developing a sound game plan and calling a good game.
IMO the good ones are in the minority.

If the purpose of TB is to develop players to play in college, as many will claim, why aren't those coaches working to fully develop their catchers?

 

[Greenmonsters]

You spend 20+ years working your way up through the ranks to coach at a top tier school. You know the capabilities of your pitchers better than the pitchers themselves. You spend endless hours watching video of the opposition and analyzing stats. You agonize late into the night over the game plan for the double header tomorrow. Your job is on the line each and every season and your boss deals only in results, not excuses. Now turn it all over to a 20 year old kid carrying 18 hours who slept 5 hours last night because she was up studying.

Don't you think the stakes are bigger for MLB Managers? There are only 30 of those jobs with the life changing paychecks, yet who calls the pitches?

 

[Doug Romrell]

Is there anybody you know who claims that they, themselves, can call a game as well from the bench than they could from behind the plate? No argument that the coach has the time to watch video and develop the better game plan. Pass it on to the catcher who can implement it in consideration of their much more accurate observations of the pitcher's stuff, the umpires zone, and the hitters' subtle adjustments. Yes, it does require a smart, confident catcher with prior experience, which is the excuse that many coaches give for not delegating the responsibility.

Being a college coach does not automatically mean that someone is capable of developing a sound game plan and calling a good game.
IMO the good ones are in the minority.

If the purpose of TB is to develop players to play in college, as many will claim, why aren't those coaches working to fully develop their catchers?

Are you saying that the TB catcher should always be calling the pitches?
And, are you saying that catchers (TB or college), who are younger than their coaches, are generally better at calling pitches than coaches are?

I will say that career MLB catchers are quite a bit further up the chain than TB or college softball players are in terms of their acumen. And, I'm not talking about male versus female, as I think professional female softball catchers would have similar acumen.

I'm actually interested in your response. I'm not just being a smart-a..

Let me also add that I don't always call the pitches. I do, however, when my pitching student is pitching. I don't when I have a pick-up pitcher who has brought her catcher with her.

 

[riseball]

Is there anybody you know who claims that they, themselves, can call a game as well from the bench than they could from behind the plate? No argument that the coach has the time to watch video and develop the better game plan. Pass it on to the catcher who can implement it in consideration of their much more accurate observations of the pitcher's stuff, the umpires zone, and the hitters' subtle adjustments. Yes, it does require a smart, confident catcher with prior experience, which is the excuse that many coaches give for not delegating the responsibility.

Being a college coach does not automatically mean that someone is capable of developing a sound game plan and calling a good game.
IMO the good ones are in the minority.

If the purpose of TB is to develop players to play in college, as many will claim, why aren't those coaches working to fully develop their catchers?

The purpose of TB is not to prepare players for college. That is not possible unless they are headed to a pretty lame program. Every player I have ever helped get recruited has told me that they wish they had worked harder and despite our efforts did not know what college ball would really entail. TB hopefully provides a player with a foundation from which the can build upon to become a competent college player. Once we start having TB players for 4-6 hours a day, 7 days a week we can truly prepare them for the rigors of college ball. But with 2 practices twice a week and tournaments on weekends that is not going to happen.

I teach catchers what I can with respect to calling pitches. Typically I articulate the game plan and start calling the game. If things are going well and the catcher seems capable to execute what I have laid out I turn it over to them. But I make it clear that the latitude I provide them in TB in no way means they will ever get that in college. Some do quite well, others struggle and make mistakes. We try to learn from those mistakes and get better.

 

[Greenmonsters]

1. Are you saying that the TB catcher should always be calling the pitches?
2. And, are you saying that catchers (TB or college), who are younger than their coaches, are generally better at calling pitches than coaches are?

3. I will say that career MLB catchers are quite a bit further up the chain than TB or college softball players are in terms of their acumen. And, I'm not talking about male versus female, as I think professional female softball catchers would have similar acumen.

I'm actually interested in your response. I'm not just being a smart-a..

1. I'm saying that catchers (Note: In this context, I do believe that its important to recognize the difference between "catchers" i.e., those who make it their primary position and work toward continuous improvement and "players who catch" i.e., those that play the catcher position but don't intend to specialize at it.) should be calling the game, whether it be LL, rec, TB, college, pro etc, because they are best positioned to do so. IMO, the teaching can and should start when 1) you have a "catcher"; and 2) pitches are called - even if its just the location of a fastball. This way it starts simple and builds slowly as pitchers learn a change up and progressively develop other pitches (even if they can't be differentiated by eye). Teaching and transitioning pitch calling responsibility should be an iterative process and should always be a collaboration between the C, P, and coach, even at the highest levels. How soon the process and to what degree the catcher has autonomy should depend on the catcher's desire and demonstrated aptitude. Some are better than others at it, but in most cases even the worst are at least as effective as calling from the bench. But if they do not have significant prior experience at it, college is not the place to learn via trial and error because the team's success and coach's career are at stake.

2. Experience is king, age is irrelevant. Started on the path at 10-12, by 16U a serious catcher will be able to call a better game than the vast majority of their coaches. Where did the coach develop their pitch-calling skills? Even if they've studied it (and that means more than just watching MLB), most have not called a game from behind the plate (or pitched to a catcher who called their pitches). Without that hands-on experience there isn't the comprehension of what can't be seen and understood from the bench/bucket.
The value of a confident, experienced pitcher-catcher battery, although intangible, is significant.

3. MLB catchers, not unlike NFL QBs, will implement the coach's basic game plan, but audible/adjust based on what they see each pitch. Everyone of them learned from experience.


Personal TB Experience: Coaching second year of 16U TB I had 2 catchers and 1 girl who caught. I transitioned pitch calling over to the 2 catchers, who had a low-high intermediate level of understanding of pitch calling, because I, despite having many more years experience, believed that 1) they could be as (or nearly as!) effective as I could from the bench because they were in a better position to read the pitcher's stuff, umpire's strike zone, and batter's subtle adjustments than I could from the bench 2) it helped them further develop their skill sets. It was a collaborative effort, but they called 95%+ of the pitches.

 

[Greenmonsters]

...I teach catchers what I can with respect to calling pitches. Typically I articulate the game plan and start calling the game. If things are going well and the catcher seems capable to execute what I have laid out I turn it over to them. But I make it clear that the latitude I provide them in TB in no way means they will ever get that in college. Some do quite well, others struggle and make mistakes. We try to learn from those mistakes and get better.

This is all you can do - provide them the opportunity. If only more did that, starting younger, then college coaches would either have to relinquish pitch calling to the catchers, or admit that they are a control freak who either doesn't have confidence in their ability to recruit capable catchers or, alternatively, doesn't trust them.