New to the Curve

[shaker1]

I can assure you I can put flat side spin on a ball for it to curve. But I chose not to in games because I didn't want the pitch staying on the same plain as where I threw it for the hitter to read, measure and attack. Hitting balls on the same plain is what the majority of girls are taught from day 1 of working on their swing first it's T work, then soft toss, etc. Nothing that simulates the ball moving so they can hit the ball and learn to adjust the swing accordingly.

DNeeld things most curves will have some degree of backspin... I guess that ultimately depends on if you throw it with the palm under or palm on top of the ball. Personally I don't think palm on top puts as much rotation for the ball to curve as palm under but, I'm sure there will be plenty of arguments on that one. There is a lot of curveball (and screwball) confusion by the step off the rubber. Way TOO many people see a RHP step way right and throw way left and call it a curve (regardless of the spin) and step way left and throw way right and call it a screw (regardless of the spin). And once again, because girls are not taught adjustments to moving pitches early enough it seems like the strikeout is caused by movement rather than the girls simply not knowing how to hit it.

As some of you know I worked with Oregon's Jenna Lilley since she was 10 years old. I threw BP to her for 1/2 hour every week for 8 years. I taught her how to read me, watch my grip, look for distinctions in my motion to telegraph the pitch etc etc. I am telling you, without a word of a lie, by the time she was a junior in HS I could not fool her on pitches. Now in full disclosure, I didn't throw 100% at her but I threw much harder than ANYONE she'd see in college. She was not fooled by pitches, fouling off what she couldn't hit square. We started together when I would throw to her sister who was at Northwestern at the time. Jenna's dad, how is a hitting coach by the way, had 3 girls play D1 softball and a brother D1 baseball and drafted by Cardinals. But he had the foresight to get Jenna hitting live pitching ASAP. I'd say it paid off. But make no mistake Jenna was playing D1 with or without me. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! However I'd like to think I helped.

That story was not to brag. It was to illustrate the difference between learning to hit pitches and learning to swing. It's not the same thing. And pitches that look successful can be deceptive.

Bill

Well?? I'm sure if anyone can, you probably could. Wasn't directing that at anyone in particular Bill. Just that it's a very difficult spin to achieve. In your opinion, what is the ideal spin for a palm up curve?

 

[Crystal Brown]

I can assure you I can put flat side spin on a ball for it to curve. But I chose not to in games because I didn't want the pitch staying on the same plain as where I threw it for the hitter to read, measure and attack. Hitting balls on the same plain is what the majority of girls are taught from day 1 of working on their swing first it's T work, then soft toss, etc. Nothing that simulates the ball moving so they can hit the ball and learn to adjust the swing accordingly.

DNeeld things most curves will have some degree of backspin... I guess that ultimately depends on if you throw it with the palm under or palm on top of the ball. Personally I don't think palm on top puts as much rotation for the ball to curve as palm under but, I'm sure there will be plenty of arguments on that one. There is a lot of curveball (and screwball) confusion by the step off the rubber. Way TOO many people see a RHP step way right and throw way left and call it a curve (regardless of the spin) and step way left and throw way right and call it a screw (regardless of the spin). And once again, because girls are not taught adjustments to moving pitches early enough it seems like the strikeout is caused by movement rather than the girls simply not knowing how to hit it.

As some of you know I worked with Oregon's Jenna Lilley since she was 10 years old. I threw BP to her for 1/2 hour every week for 8 years. I taught her how to read me, watch my grip, look for distinctions in my motion to telegraph the pitch etc etc. I am telling you, without a word of a lie, by the time she was a junior in HS I could not fool her on pitches. Now in full disclosure, I didn't throw 100% at her but I threw much harder than ANYONE she'd see in college. She was not fooled by pitches, fouling off what she couldn't hit square. We started together when I would throw to her sister who was at Northwestern at the time. Jenna's dad, how is a hitting coach by the way, had 3 girls play D1 softball and a brother D1 baseball and drafted by Cardinals. But he had the foresight to get Jenna hitting live pitching ASAP. I'd say it paid off. But make no mistake Jenna was playing D1 with or without me. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! However I'd like to think I helped.

That story was not to brag. It was to illustrate the difference between learning to hit pitches and learning to swing. It's not the same thing. And pitches that look successful can be deceptive.

Bill

About a year ago, my daughter tried out for a well respected travel ball team. The coach asked, "what pitches does she throw?" Being an excited parent, I responded with a big smile, "She throws a drop ball, changeup and an off speed. She also can hit all four corners of the plate pretty accurately." The coach said, "come back when she masters all of her pitches. He points to his ace pitcher and brags about all her pitches. I watched her and yes, she had speed but what you mentioned was exactly what she was doing. Rise ball looked like a high fastball. She stepped left and threw right. She stepped right and threw left…

 

[GunnerShotgun]

Let me preface this by saying I'm not a big curveball endorser. I have come to recognize their place in the female game so I will add them in on occasion. But, the way I do things, and this is solely my belief, I want the riseball started and nearly completed before I will do a curve.
Bill

While I don't disagree with anything you say here I do question the value of teaching the riseball when so few female pitchers will ever be able to throw one (effectively). When you look at the small pool size of female softball pitchers that will every have the speed and spin to throw a riseball I question if they would be better off perfecting the drop or the curve.

Perhaps your audience is all D1/D2 pitchers that are throwing in 60's, but again that is a small number of pitchers. Perhaps even if they don't throw it well it's still an effective pitch?

Love your videos by the way.

 

[Classof2020]

While I don't disagree with anything you say here I do question the value of teaching the riseball when so few female pitchers will ever be able to throw one (effectively). When you look at the small pool size of female softball pitchers that will every have the speed and spin to throw a riseball I question if they would be better off perfecting the drop or the curve.

Perhaps your audience is all D1/D2 pitchers that are throwing in 60's, but again that is a small number of pitchers. Perhaps even if they don't throw it well it's still an effective pitch?

Love your videos by the way.

Ok this is my OP on curves but I just have to comment. I don't quite know why we see these posts about RB's all the time. My DD is only 14, she only throws probably TOPS 54 on a good day and her RB is effective. It changes the look of what the batter sees, if they do hit it it is almost always a pop up to second. I'm assuming as she gets faster it will only be more effective. My DD doesn't throw bullet spin on hers so maybe that is the difference, if it's not fast enough to "really rise" (whatever that means") then it at least has good spin to not fly out of the park.

I'm curious to see what this curve (or drop curve) spin will do when it's hit if we decide to stick with it.

 

[corlay]

I agree that a bullet-spin pitch will still drop less than a forward tumbling drop,
and that working toward perfecting a back-spin pitch is certainly not a fool's errand.

13yr old DD throws a "rise", which is really just a slightly up-turned bullet,
but I know it's effective, because when she throws to new catchers,
they often tip the first few off the top of their glove - especially if she's warmed-up throwing drops up to that point.

I think that if a kid can throw a proper forward-tumbling drop and contrast that with a quasi-rise,
there is enough of a difference in those two pitches to be effective.

My kid does also throw a curve, and I will say, she gave up a total of 2 hits that cleared the fence this past season,
and both were on curves...

 

[Ken Krause]

My pitching students have had a lot of success with the curve over the years. Not just in the local tournaments, but in Colorado and various nationals as well as college ball (including D1). When coaches are calling pitches they tend to call it a lot because it's so effective.

I like the curve to start out looking all big and fat down the middle, and then just before it gets to the plate it breaks off the plate. If you let it go it will be called a ball. But by the time it breaks the hitter is already committed to what she thinks is going to be a meatball. If she does get the bat on it it usually goes foul to the opposite side.

I remember one girl's dad telling me about a conversation he had with a parent from California. The other parent said west coast players often have trouble hitting Midwest pitching because everything on the west coast is north/south. They don't get a lot of looks at east/west pitching, so they have a hard time adjusting. Maybe it was just that guy's daughter's team, but it didn't sound like it.

 

[Rocketech1]

My DD doesn't throw bullet spin on hers so maybe that is the difference, if it's not fast enough to "really rise" (whatever that means") then it at least has good spin to not fly out of the park.it.

Would love to see video of her riseball with 6-12 backspin.

 

[Rocketech1]

While I don't disagree with anything you say here I do question the value of teaching the riseball when so few female pitchers will ever be able to throw one (effectively). When you look at the small pool size of female softball pitchers that will every have the speed and spin to throw a riseball I question if they would be better off perfecting the drop or the curve.

Perhaps your audience is all D1/D2 pitchers that are throwing in 60's, but again that is a small number of pitchers. Perhaps even if they don't throw it well it's still an effective pitch?

Love your videos by the way.

Where did you come to the conclusion that riseballs are ineffective except for pitchers throwing mid-60's? Even a riseball thrown at 55mph, high and tight, is a good compliment to say the drop ball. The location and speed are what makes it effective even as early as 12u & 14u.

 

[GunnerShotgun]

Where did you come to the conclusion that riseballs are ineffective except for pitchers throwing mid-60's? Even a riseball thrown at 55mph, high and tight, is a good compliment to say the drop ball. The location and speed are what makes it effective even as early as 12u & 14u.

Because a riseball at 12u/14u is not a riseball it's just a high fastball. I don't disagree that a high fastball is effective.

If this is the case than every pitcher throws a "riseball". But if you parse this out further, a low fastball is not a drop ball.

Every year dozens of pitchers pitching at the "A" level come to my tryouts and display their "riseball". Over the years only 5% -10% have ever actually had a riseball. I question the amount of time spent learning a pitch that very few pitchers will ever master. If your daughter has D1 talent and the speed to throw it then of course, it makes sense.

Perhaps the answer is, even if they never master the pitch (a high fastball) it can still be effective. I would argue that a low fastball is effective as well but it's not as good as a drop-ball that can be thrown on three different planes at various speeds.

This circles back to the original question if you should be learning the "riseball" before the "curveball". I am just not seeing that in the pitchers we have or the pitchers we face.

To double down on this...an inside pitch is not a screwball. Pitching coaches should be fired for promoting this crap. I do see actual screwballs so I know someone is doing good work out there but for the most part it's nonsense.

The pitch I see thrown the most effectively? The curveball (and dropball). Again just my observations as a coach.

 

[CasshendyB]

It seemed to fall off to the outside corner (she is a RHP). Am I looking for a pitch that stays a touch flatter and moves to the outside or is this low outside corner/drop perfect . . .

I would much rather have a pitch that changes planes (up and down) and moves out than a pitch that stays flat on the plane. The batters can follow a pitch that is flat. But when moving up or down, they have to move with it; much more difficult. If your DD can throw a curve the moves away and down, I would say perfect it. It could possibly be much more deadly that a straight curve. With that being said, she needs to be able to move that pitch further and further outside on cue. So teach her to throw her "curve" on the corner for a behind or equal count and also her "curve" further away for an ahead or strikeout count. In my observations, a curve ball is really utilized outside of the plate to obtain a strikeout or get a little ground ball to the right side of the field. She needs to be able to execute both locations. Do be leery of the fact that you will have some people tell you it is impossible to throw a pitch that curves and drops. But, if that what this pitch does then USE IT!! I hope all of this makes sense and I have written it in a way that is understandable! Good luck!