LBR question

[Wookie]

We played in a "scrimmage" tournament today and this situation came up and I wasn't sure if the ruling was correct. ASA rules were being followed.

Runner at 3rd and batter walks on a blocked pitch so pitcher comes in to cover home with runner at 3rd about 10 feet down the line. Catcher throws back to pitcher in front of circle and then P enters circle, and batter approaches 1st and continues on to second, which is legal, but runner at 3rd is still off and does not move. Batter-runner continues to 2nd and still no play is made by P on either runner and runner at 3rd is still off the base by about 10 feet. I'm yelling that the runner at 3rd is out but ump would not have it.

The final outcome was that the P threw to 2nd, with batter-runner returning to first while runner at 3rd scored. Umps reasoning is that the runner at 3rd is not out because the LBR requires that the P actually "look at the runner, that's why it's called the LOOK BACK rule".

OH, and I did check the 2010 ASA rule book after the game and there is no mention of the P actually looking at the runner. It only mentions that if a play is made, even a fake, then the LBR is null.

So who is right - me or the ump?

 

[Coach Al]

You are! Pitcher is under no obligation to look at then runner.
LOOK-BACK RULE (Fast Pitch) (Rule 8 Section 7 T).
When a runner is legitimately off base after a pitch, or as a result of a
batter completing their turn at bat, and is stationary when the pitcher has
the ball in the circle, the runner MUST immediately attempt to advance to
the next base or immediately return to the base left.
The responsibility is entirely on the runner. There is no obligation on the
pitcher to look, fake or throw.
A. The “look back” rule does not go into effect for any runner until the
batter-runner touches first base or is called out, and the pitcher has
control of the ball within the eight foot radius circle.
B. Failure to immediately proceed to the next base or return to their original
base after the pitcher has the ball within the circle results in the runner
being called out.
C. Once the runner returns or stops at any base for any reason, the runner
is out if they leave that base.
EXCEPTION B-C: A runner will not be declared out when:
1. A play is made on another runner, or
2. The pitcher leaves the circle or drops the ball, or
3. The pitcher releases the ball to the batter, or
4. The pitcher places the ball under their arm or between their legs
to free both hands to fix their uniform, hair, etc. The ball is not
controlled unless it is held in the glove or hand. Once the pitcher
controls the ball again in the glove or hand, the “Look Back” rule
is again in effect.
D. If multiple runners are off base and more than one umpire calls a runner
out, the umpires must determine which runner was called out first
and return the other runner(s) to the base they left. When a runner is
declared out in this situation, the ball is dead. It is impossible to call
two outs on the “look back” rule.
E. A pitcher fielding a ball in the circle is an infielder and runners can leave
their base. If runners leave their base, the same rule applies while the
pitcher holds the ball in the circle: once the runner stops, they must
decide which way to continue or be called out.
F. A base on balls or a dropped third strike is treated as a batted ball if
the batter-runner continues past first base without stopping or stops
only once and then immediately moves one way or the other. However,
if the runner stops at first base and then steps off the base after the
pitcher has the ball in the circle, the runner is out.
G. Batter-runners overrunning first base can not start back to the base,
and before reaching first advance to second base. If a batter-runner
commits to first base, moving toward first base, the runner must return
to that base. The batter-runner may not change their mind and advance
to second base once they have started moving directly to first
base following the overrun. If they do so, the runner is out. Umpire’s
judgment determines what is committing toward a base.
H. If a runner is moving toward a base, other than first base, when the
pitcher receives the ball in the circle, that runner may stop once then
immediately advance to the next base or return to the previous base.
A runner failing to advance to the next base or return to the previous
base should be called out. Making an attempt or fake justifies the runner
being called out. If, after the pitcher has the ball in the circle, the
runner starts back to their original base or forward to another base and
then stops or reverses direction, the runner is out unless the pitcher
makes a play on them or another runner. When a play is made on any
runner, other runners may also stop or reverse their direction.
I. A runner is out when standing off the base and they do not immediately
attempt to advance or return after the pitcher has the ball in the
circle.
J. While in the circle and in possession of the ball, any act by the pitcher
that, in the umpire’s judgment, causes the runner to react is considered
making a play.
K. The pitcher must have control of the ball while in the circle. Placing
the ball on the ground, holding the ball between their legs or under
their arm is not considered having control of the ball.
L. Being in the eight-foot circle is defined as both feet within or partially
within the lines. The pitcher is not considered in the circle if either foot
is completely outside the lines.

 

[NWITom]

I believe play is still live since runner is running to second. Player on third is not subject to look back rule until runner stops. That's what I am thinking.

 

[Crabby_Bob]

In this situation, all runners are subject to the LBR as soon as BR touches first. Read section A posted by Coach Al.

 

[PA SB Dad]

Continuation and what the runner on third has to do has got to be the most misunderstood and misinterpreted rule at 10U and 12U. Last year we had this call go against us when we were on the bases, and then had the call go against us on defense for the same play in the same game by the same umpire (don't get me started). We usually go after the batter-runner when we have no outs (a runner on third with no outs will almost always end up scoring anyway) and when we have 2 outs, which is a timing play to try to get the out before the runner from third can score.

Once the players arms are strong enough to make the throws back and forth, this silliness usually stops, usually against the better 12U teams and above.

 

[Wookie]

My concern wasn't so much as to whether she was out or not, it was the explanation I got - that the pitcher has to look at the runner. In my opinion, he probably didn't see the play, as he was the only ump, and if he would have said that he didn't see it I would have been fine with that reasoning - can't make a call on a play you didn't see. But to tell me the rule says that she literally has to be looked at, well .....

 

[MTR]

My concern wasn't so much as to whether she was out or not, it was the explanation I got - that the pitcher has to look at the runner. In my opinion, he probably didn't see the play, as he was the only ump, and if he would have said that he didn't see it I would have been fine with that reasoning - can't make a call on a play you didn't see. But to tell me the rule says that she literally has to be looked at, well .....

Umpire is wrong

From what CoachAl posted above (ASA Rules Supplement #34): The responsibility is entirely on the runner. There is no obligation on the pitcher to look, fake or throw.

Don't think there is much room for doubt there. The LBR went into effect when the pitcher completely entered the circle and the BR touched 1B. The moment those two requirements were met, the runner on third must make an immediate move to return to 3B or advance. Usually umpires will allow for a very deliberate "one second" count for the runner to move.

 

[shockcoach]

If this happens in a tournament, be sure to protest the call if they say the pitcher has to "look back the runner." R3 should be out and BR goes to 1st.