A recent thread on movement pitches (junk ballers)talked about pitches "breaking late" or "breaking late and hard". When it comes to breaking pitches what causes late break vs early break or gradual break and what forces cause it to happen "late"?
Late Breaking Pitches (Respect for Junk Ballers)
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Here's my take: Speed+spin+trajectory=perception
A slower pitch with good spin will seem to have a long bend. It may have more "break," but it will be easier to track and hit once recognized. A faster ptich with good spin may have a little less break, but because it is travelling faster, there is less time to react and the perception is that it seems to break late. Trajectory (placement) may help with the effect.
A slower pitch with good spin will seem to have a long bend. It may have more "break," but it will be easier to track and hit once recognized. A faster ptich with good spin may have a little less break, but because it is travelling faster, there is less time to react and the perception is that it seems to break late. Trajectory (placement) may help with the effect.
I was thinking about this stuff earlier this morning; wishing that some university's physics program would get in kahoots with their softball team to study spin, speed, break and trajectory.
For the most part, pitchers rely on what seems to work. Someone tries out a spin, the catcher or coach likes it, they use it in games and it works or doesn't work. Assumptions are made as to why based on perception. For years, some thought the rise ball really curved upward. Same with late break. Physics says these things aren't what we thought, yet the illusion is still effective. It would be interesting to know what really happens in a controlled, dedicated study.
For the most part, pitchers rely on what seems to work. Someone tries out a spin, the catcher or coach likes it, they use it in games and it works or doesn't work. Assumptions are made as to why based on perception. For years, some thought the rise ball really curved upward. Same with late break. Physics says these things aren't what we thought, yet the illusion is still effective. It would be interesting to know what really happens in a controlled, dedicated study.
Greenmonsters
Wannabe Duck Boat Owner
The physics are the same independent of velocity, but perception and reaction time are speed dependent.
lhouser, My daughter 10U did extensive research on this topic for her science project( Magnus Effect). It was really fascinating to learn the science behind it. We actually created wind tunnel and ball spinner to simulate various pitches for her science project. It is amazing she can explain how the spin must occur for what velocity is must for how much break to occur. Speed and spin both are very important factors for the breaks .
Here is the nasa site if you want research more.
Ideal Lift of a Spinning Ball
Here is the nasa site if you want research more.
Ideal Lift of a Spinning Ball
Here is the right link.
CurveBall Expert Version - 1.7e beta
CurveBall Expert Version - 1.7e beta
Ken, as you said in the first post, If you just calculate lateral displacement at plate it will be Ball "B" will have more movement. The same goes with 'Arc" which is mainly due to drop in speed from point of release to the plate. 45MPH ball will have more relative drop in speed at plate than 65 MPH hence more arc near plate. Now things get really complicated when we incorporate human brains reaction time for 45 MPH vs 65 MPH
I said that!? Glad I made some sense. Love that NASA link.
(To be honest, if you told me "lateral displacement" is what's causing my back to hurt--I'd prolly believe it!)
I was wondering if the drop in speed over distance resulted in more downward arc. Is the same true for lateral movement, or does the same friction reduce the spin enough to negate any extra break?
Added: I'm not asking in terms of the batter's perception. Just curious about the science of it.
(To be honest, if you told me "lateral displacement" is what's causing my back to hurt--I'd prolly believe it!)
I was wondering if the drop in speed over distance resulted in more downward arc. Is the same true for lateral movement, or does the same friction reduce the spin enough to negate any extra break?
Added: I'm not asking in terms of the batter's perception. Just curious about the science of it.
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You guys are looking for unicorns.
If Cat Osterman told a batter that she was throwing a curve, do you think that the batter would think the pitch has a "late break"? Of course not--because "late break" is about confusing the batter. If the batter isn't confused, there is no "late break".
How does a batter determine a pitch is curve ball? She looks at (1) the pitcher's motion (2) the pitcher's pitch selection throughout the game and (3) visually looking at the ball during the pitch.
Go out to the park and pitchers (and coaches) routinely give away the pitch by using a pattern (e.g., no breaking pitch with 3 balls or always throw a breaking pitch on 0-2). Then, pitchers use different pre-motions for different pitches, so the batter is give a cue about the pitch. (The classic: The pitcher "fixes her grip" on her leg rather than hiding the ball in the glove.)
The pitcher also has to throw fastballs for strikes having the same trajectory as the breaking pitch. This is especially a problem for vertical breaking pitches. How many rise ball pitchers do you see that never throw a high fastball for a strike? Smart batters simply don't swing at anything above the waist.
If Cat Osterman told a batter that she was throwing a curve, do you think that the batter would think the pitch has a "late break"? Of course not--because "late break" is about confusing the batter. If the batter isn't confused, there is no "late break".
How does a batter determine a pitch is curve ball? She looks at (1) the pitcher's motion (2) the pitcher's pitch selection throughout the game and (3) visually looking at the ball during the pitch.
Go out to the park and pitchers (and coaches) routinely give away the pitch by using a pattern (e.g., no breaking pitch with 3 balls or always throw a breaking pitch on 0-2). Then, pitchers use different pre-motions for different pitches, so the batter is give a cue about the pitch. (The classic: The pitcher "fixes her grip" on her leg rather than hiding the ball in the glove.)
The pitcher also has to throw fastballs for strikes having the same trajectory as the breaking pitch. This is especially a problem for vertical breaking pitches. How many rise ball pitchers do you see that never throw a high fastball for a strike? Smart batters simply don't swing at anything above the waist.
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