I/R pitching DVDs

[Hillhouse]

BM

I think you hit the nail on the head with a couple of your statements. You (obviously) went into more detail than I did with what you wrote. The point and premise of what I was trying to say was about the folks who FORCE this IR movement into their pitching.

I also get a lot of newbies that come to me, and at first they mimic what they think I want to see or what they have seen others do. But with all due respect, this isn't what I was talking about. This is a different subject. My point, again, was for others to be careful when they try to "teach" this movement. It sounds like you and I were saying the same thing.

Sorry BM, I don't know what the "Hanson principal" is. Yes that was me in the video. I'm not sure where you were going with that?

I think you and I are of a like mind. My intent of my post was to warn of the forced movement some are making in their quest for IR. It was not to bash anything or belittle it.

Bill

Nor would I want you to Bill.........So thx for that........



True for some........Not at all true for others Bill..........Case in point......

A friend stopped by my office one morning last summer with his 9 year old DD. Said she wanted to learn to pitch, and he wanted me to take a look at, and gauge her "natural" talent for pitching.

Never had a lesson. Plays SS on her local rec league team. Really good arm for a 9 year old. Soccer star at her age. IOW........one hell of an athlete for her age..........She was "watching" the older girls, and decided pitching was for her.....

I took her out back and asked her to throw the ball hard UNDERHAND like the "big girls do".......I gave her several tries, and this was the general result of all her attempts at "mimicking" what her mind saw the older girls do......

Natural I/R because she's never been taught not to?.........Not a chance.........This was her "natural" response to "throwing the ball underhand"........And I've seen plenty just like her........

So no......In my 30 years of instruction, I'd venture to say 25% are "naturals".........Another 50% have the potential to be good.......And the last 25% are going to struggle to get out of their own way.......And I won't take their money.......



I've never seen or read any of Dougs work...........The fact is that "the movement" was always I/R........I just took the time to explain it for what it is, and how/why it works.........And I know you're not Poo-Pooing that here........



Something I've warned against several times here when we teach kids "WHAT" that "magic motion" is that the best use.......It's a slippery slope to educate people Bill, without in person instruction. But I'd say the same thing about learning from "DVD" authors as well........The saying goes........"Good information in the wrong hands can be dangerous"......



And for good reason Bill.........This is you is it not? It's the "Hanson Principle" at work.........

Are we teaching what we "say you should do"?.........Or what we "actually do".........Example......Where is our ball facing at the top?.........Third base?........

The fact is........The hand turning over is a "Natural Move" as part of the Kinematic chain Bill.......UNLESS you are manipulating it NOT TO for the purposes throwing a certain pitch, or have NOT been taught to "let it loose" so to speak........Learning the basic fundamentals of good I/R bio-mechanics for the purposes of learning to propel a softball at the highest velocity is training "core movements" of the highest level pitchers in the game........INCLUDING yourself......



It "should" is a fantasy for many young AND old pitchers.........Why not teach them what that magic move is IF they need to learn it?........

I have the utmost respect everything you stand for Bill. Including your stance on I/R........It may just be possible that at your level of instruction, you don't see anyone but "naturals" knocking at your door for lessons..........IOW......The top 25%......I've had my share of that pie also........

Had I taken the road of producing DVD's and marketing myself like you did at a much younger age........I may have been in your shoes........But that wasn't my calling I guess.........I'm just a devoted Husband/Dad to 3 DD's.......And a 30 year veteran PC who never though about making a career out of the "other thing" I love to do........

Best regards.........And keep up the good work........You are doing a wonderful job "giving back"........

Here's one last thing on teaching, or more over, LEARNING to teach I/R.........Of those middle 50%'rs......The one's who almost/kind of get it.......From the H/E pitcher, to those with some incomplete I/R in the motion..........Being able to understand and teach the complete mechanics of I/R might save 1/2 of that crowd from "giving up" on themselves, or more over, their parents giving up on their kids dreams because they just weren't "getting it" and didn't want to waste any more time and/or money........

It can be a total transformation for some.......And just an "Ah Ha" moment for others, that furthers enhances their own ability........And when the eyes light up like you've never seen them lit before........You know you done good.......The best line I've heard from a parent who was all but done spending was: "Holy Crap Honey!......Where did that come from?!"

All my best..........Sorry for the long response.........

 

[coach james]

Thanks. We'll keep plugging away at it

 

[quincy]

We have all of Bill’s DVDs but it is probably another year of hello elbow for DD. It is hard to change and not sure if we are going to try this year. Only “IR” instructor I know is an hour away and I know my DD will not want to consistently go to them so why waste everyone’s time.

 

[coach james]

Quincy,
We are in the same boat! Whats your cabin number lol
The closest quality instructor (I/R) for me is about 100 miles away...

 

[Ken B]

I believe the Hanson Principle is a method of teaching or explaining a mechanic that can be qualified by video of high level examples. If there is overwhelming video evidence to back a teaching, then one would suggest the teaching is probably accurate. Bowling/HE can be debunked in 99% of video of almost any high level pitcher.

When the arm is at 12 o'clock in the circle, some may ask where the ball should face. When viewing slow-mo video of high level pitchers, most examples show the ball facing home or even 1B.

 

[coach james]

Ken, funny you brought up the hand position. I've been noticing lately about the hand position at the top of the circle... everyone says to face third, but all the videos I search out it seems more like the palm is still facing home when at 12o'clock...

 

[GunnerShotgun]

At 12 o'clock it should be facing home or the what I call the "show" position (show the batter the ball). Look at the video of Bill above.

 

[BoardMember]

"The Hanson Principle", duly named for Mark Hanson, a former but frequent forum poster who's creed was:

"Always compare anything anyone says, or tells you to do, with slo-motion video of the best in the world"............

A litmus test of sorts for both coaches and players. A principle that has "raised the bar" for both coaches and players, by setting new and higher standards that require theory and mechanical principles/teaching to stand up to the "test" of how the best athletes in the world create what they create.

When I first wrote about I/R pitching mechanics here at DPF, I described mechanical principles that opened the eyes of the fast pitch community with regard to high level mechanics. In those first posts, I also described the flawed mechanics of what I termed as "wave it up" mechanics, which we now identify with "Hello Elbow" or "Bowling". The Hanson Principle was part of the reason people were drawn to my writings in those posts, and identified with INternal Rotation mechanics.

If you understand the "Hanson Principle", you'll understand then why I posted this in my response to Bill about I/R.

I ask why they are turning the hand over and have been told they are "working on IR".

So be careful about "teaching" this movement.

And so I responded: "And for good reason Bill.........This is you is it not? It's the "Hanson Principle" at work".........

What you may have missed is.......This game clip shows Bill's hand turning completely over to palm down......So why would someone have to ask "why is your hand turning over", and claim it's flaw that must be avoided? When in actuality, it's a result of proper mechanics, whether perfomed correctly or not.......Working on I/R, and forcing a result in the learning phase, is NO different then "working on Riseball" and forcing backspin in the early stages of learning the mechanics of that pitch.....

If someone comes to me and the hand turns over, even at the wrong timing of it.......I'm excited to work with that player, because I know that with proper training "upstream" of that position, I have the makings of a "whipper" vs. a "pusher".......

Bottom line is, since my writings on I/R, there have been many qualified instructors who claim that I/R is natural to basically anyone and everyone, and if you leave things along, GOOD I/R mechanics will always result......

If that were the case........The I/R thread wouldn't have almost 30,000 views to date.......

My point is learn to teach it.......vs. Ignoring it and hoping things fall into place. If it is already present, keep it in the tool box........If not........Use the tool to your advantage by taking TIME off of the learning curve of this "absolute" principle of good mechanics........

One last thing about "ball position" at the top..........It is as much about the "loading phase" of the shoulder/forearm and wrist to prepare for the release of stretch and energy storage then it is about the circle direction. When the ball faces home at the top, the arm is "fully loaded for release".........When the ball faces 3rd at the top, 1/4 of the energy is already unloaded.........

More on this later......

 

[Hillhouse]

I almost started a new thread on this topic of the position of the hand at 12 o'clock. Because I can see where there's a lot of confusion. FOR ME (I am not speaking for BM, Hal, or any other pitching coach)... when I start out with a kid, the goal is to get straight spin on the ball. 6-12 rotation. In my experience, I get a lot of kids who cup, curl, turn their wrist during the arm circle... this leads to various problems at the release: 1. bullet spin. 2. turning the hand over at release. 3. chicken winging. etc.

I worry more about the position of the hand/ball during the downswing than I do where the ball is at 12 o'clock.

Again, in my experience, those who have problems with spin at the release have a problem with their wrist at 12 o'clock and then the downswing. If the wrist is cocked or cupped, MOST girls I see leave it in that position during the arm circle and then have poor spin at the release because the hand can only turn the ball, not snap through the pitch (elbow, wrist and fingers in that order). This turn of the ball reduces speed and gives a sideways spin in one form or another. So, making them point the ball towards 3rd base (RH pitcher) where the fingers point to the sky, and then act as if they are waving to 3rd base during the downswing really seems to help a lot of pitchers get their fingers pointed down at the release, so the ball can roll straight off. When they get the release right, and the spin starts to straighten out, the position of the hand at 12 o'clock becomes less of an issue for me.

It's kind of like teaching a kid division in math class. At young ages, you are taught to "carry" numbers as you go through long division to make it easier to see and learn. As we get older, we no longer "show the work" of the division and can do the carrying of numbers in our heads.

In my opinion, one of the biggest causes for problems with the wrist (12 o'clock and downswing) is caused when a pitcher makes the jump from 11" ball to 12" ball. That extra inch makes the ball feel like a basketball in her little hand. As a result, she curls the wrist trying to hold onto the ball and develops a bad habit. If that problem isn't nipped quickly, more issues will follow. It seems a lot of PC's don't recognize that jump in ball size and how it effects a young pitcher.

Are there other variables? Of course. But IN MY OPINION, if she's got straight spin on the ball, she's probably got a good release going on. Then it becomes a matter of getting more elbow snap into the pitch to increase the RPM's.

Bill

 

[MandM]

for coach james and quincy, i think it is worth the effort to try to teach your DD's IR and convert them, but you have to go into it realizing that it will mess with their current motion- and if they are pitching in games- they will revert to what they know- so they have to be willing to step away from that to allow themselves to develop this new habit. For CJ, your DD does need to get her speed up- my DD is a freshman too- we have been working on IR for about a year & I live in the land of hello elbow (with few exceptions) have had to travel to find someone who at least teaches to lead with the elbow- but does not emphasize the natural rotation of the forearm. Is my DD getting IR right all the time - no- is she better than she was- yes, is it because of converting her from HE- I am convinced that it is.