Hip Snap/Shoulder-Hip Disassociation

[abbygale]

Willy, if I am understanding, you are describing lag coming down the backside. What do you feel pulls that lag forward. Do you feel that it is mainly the hips or do you think that adduction in the front is playing a significant part in it? Pulling together?
The reason I ask is because my daughter tried training that backside hip move to pull her arm without much success. But when she seriously worked on her glove whirl and keeping her knee facing mostly forward, that hip snap look started showing up and her speed picked up. Provided her drive out was quick. Now, remember, I'm bad with words so this might not make much sense.

 

[jryan15]

My belief is that the hips get out ahead of the shoulders for core torque. Doesn't it make sense that the sudden stop at plant will cause the hip to rotate forward loading the torso which then snap the should back inline with the hips, adding boost to the ensuing arm whip? Start looking at all the greats, watch their hips and shoulder sequence. Most of the time it is just as I described and is in the video I posted of Cat and Blaire. I suspect that it's learned through trial and error versus a PC actually teaching it. Every other session I'll have my students focus on pitching with their hips, this is just a verbal key to focus on driving the hip into the pitch. When she does it the hips and shoulders disassociate and there is actually bit of boost on the ball. It's nothing to get carried away with just another minor adjustment or awareness. And yes the sequence does remind me of hitting.

I agree that the sudden front side stop is needed in pitching. It keeps the hips from sliding forward and bleeding power, but I really don't see Luna's hip action a result of forward momentum and a front side block. Her rear hip action is different. I don't think it is a result of any of the front side action. IMO it is special.

I see this in her rear hip action:

 

[jryan15]

Willy, if I am understanding, you are describing lag coming down the backside. What do you feel pulls that lag forward. Do you feel that it is mainly the hips or do you think that adduction in the front is playing a significant part in it? Pulling together?
The reason I ask is because my daughter tried training that backside hip move to pull her arm without much success. But when she seriously worked on her glove whirl and keeping her knee facing mostly forward, that hip snap look started showing up and her speed picked up. Provided her drive out was quick. Now, remember, I'm bad with words so this might not make much sense.

When she did this, I bet she found a rear hip coil...

Did her "hip snap" just start to happen without her intentionally doing it? This would indicate that it was the result of other things. I bet a hip coil + a scap pullback.

That mechanic can't be replicated by manually push/pull/twisting hips... That will always result in a hip push.

 

[WillyT812]

Agreed, she forcing this, but when she full on pitches I'm betting she doesn't force it and lets it happen more naturally. I could be wrong but the advantage of using core torque should be obvious.

 

[WillyT812]

I like to think of this this way: The hip gets out in front of the shoulder, the shoulder gets out in front of the arm, the elbow is in front of the forearm. Each one "snaps" the joint lagging behind it. When done in sequence you've maximized your potential. The Drive Mechanics is the generation of force in a reliable fashion that allows the multiple whips with happen throughout the body and arm.

 

[abbygale]

Actually snap is a bad word choice on my part. It is her glutes (which are already tight from driving out) being assisted in pulling tighter by the stopping of momentum due to a strong plant while pulling her frontside into herself as rapidly and firmly as she can. All that gets squeezed into the ball at release hopefully. That would be my description for her pitching motion and what brought about that appearance of a snap.

That and not letting her knee turn backwards

 

[jryan15]

Without the resistance of the backside pulling back against the hip, you will still be pushing the shoulder (even if it is behind the hip). I would venture to say that most of the time when you force hip movement, you are pushing the topside.


I think abbygales' post is an excellent example of this difference.

The reason I ask is because my daughter tried training that backside hip move to pull her arm without much success. But when she seriously worked on her glove whirl and keeping her knee facing mostly forward, that hip snap look started showing up and her speed picked up. Provided her drive out was quick.

When her DD was pushing her hips, to simulate the backside movement, it was not successful (I bet her hips were in front of her shoulders when she was doing this). Her hip was still pushing even though it was in front...

That is a pushing rear hip...


Then she working on keeping her knee forward and found success.

--- I'll attempt to recreate the crime scene ---
I bet that by keeping the knee forward it forced her lower back to pull back against her rear leg to allow her to get sideways. At this point she inadvertently coiled herself about her rear leg. As she pulls back bringing the ball around the circle, her rear hip probably projected which created a corner. If the weight of her arm and ball continue to resist her trunk rotation and she does not use her shoulders or arm to push the ball, then she maintains the corner and creates strong whip/IR.

That is a pulling rear hip...

 

[goosesdad1]

I love all the discussion. We all try to find good descriptors to help understand the pitching motion. However, the "hip snap," "pulling hip, "pushing hip" ....well let's just say I'm not hip at all!

If you look at the first page of the "Frontside Resistance" thread scroll down to the stills that KenB has posted.

There you will see, without exception, the drive leg knee rotated toward home plate and the rear hip still angled and not rotated forward. This leads me to believe there is nothing to do with the hips; it's just that in real time it looks that way. The weightless drive leg knee turns inward and then forward to most efficiently transfer the momentum generated with a vector pointing towards home plate. When this happens, it looks like a hip is snapping. Just to be clear, the hips don't turn rotationally on their own after the plant foot hits the ground. It's the thighs, glutes, and core that are doing the work of generating and transferring momentum. Well, of course, the I/R whip also, but I'm just talking about the groundwork here.

I'm not saying anything set in stone here. I am just saying that if your students are doing drills like board member's I/R drills where no momentum is generated, try having the student turn and drop their rear knee as they shift their weight onto their front leg at release. It simulates the weightlessness of the drive leg and timing of release. There is a great video clip of Sara Pauley doing this drill, but I can't find it. Anyway, no hips are involved IMHO.

 

[jryan15]

Just to be clear, the hips don't turn rotationally on their own after the plant foot hits the ground. It's the thighs, glutes, and core that are doing the work of generating and transferring momentum. Well, of course, the I/R whip also, but I'm just talking about the groundwork here.

I mentioned the hip several times to keep the vernacular consistent, but I am talking rear leg. When the rear hip is coiled, it moves with the rear leg in the IR direction.

I'm not saying anything set in stone here. I am just saying that if your students are doing drills like board member's I/R drills where no momentum is generated, try having the student turn and drop their rear knee as they shift their weight onto their front leg at release. It simulates the weightlessness of the drive leg and timing of release. There is a great video clip of Sara Pauley doing this drill, but I can't find it. Anyway, no hips are involved IMHO.

I would really enjoy seeing this drill and/or other examples. DD and I are scheduled to pitch at 8pm, and I'd like to give some of this a try.

 

[goosesdad1]

Yeah, we all have different names for things, but that's what I like about this site. You can take or leave things and come back and re-evaluate. It's discussion not debate, or worse dictate!

I don't have anyway to video anything, but if you look at the second page of the "I/R in the Classroom" sticky thread, you will find three drills for learning the feel of internal rotation. When you see it, you will see how his rear leg kind of drags behind because he is focusing on the arm. He is turing his hips because I think trying to generate momentum in a static drill.

Instead, try pushing up on your left leg (all this is opposite for lefties) while at the same time you turn your right knee in and down and then forward. This should take all the weight off the right leg and move it forward - knee cap towards home like the still pictures. You should also feel your core engage.

Sync this turning of the right knee to the drop of the arm and snap of the ball. It should be a very loose and fluid movement. Try it first, yourself. Once you have the feel of it, you can then start to speed it up.

Sorry, that's the best I can do until I find the clip of Pauley doing it.